Intro/Outro (00:01):

Welcome to Digital Transformers, the show that connects you with what you need to build, manage, and operate your digital supply chain. Join your host in a timely discussion on new and future business models with industry leading executives. The show will reveal global customer expectations, real world employment challenges, and the value of advanced business technologies like artificial intelligence, blockchain, and robotic process engineering. And, now, we bring you Digital Transformers.

Kevin L. Jackson (00:39):

Hello everyone. This is Kevin L. Jackson, and welcome to Digital Transformers on Supply Chain Now. So, I ask you, what is the future of work? Things have really changed so much over the past two years that work no longer fits any of its traditional definitions. I really didn’t appreciate how fast things were changing until February 10, 2018. That’s when sort of my work life changed – this was way, way before the pandemic – when Mr. Marcin Buzanski reached out to me on LinkedIn, you know, out of the blue with a simple question. He said, “Are you open for a short midterm assignment in the coming months?”

Kevin L. Jackson (01:33):

That was pretty surprising to me, actually. But it led me to a gig helping the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia develop the Kingdom’s cybersecurity and cloud computing policies. It was an honor to actually do that. But little did I know that the future of work had reached out from the future and touched my life. So, with that, I would like to introduce the man that transported me to my future, Mr. Marcin Buzanski, Co-Founder and President of Expertise on Demand out of Warsaw, Poland. Welcome to the show, Marcin.

Marcin Buzanski (02:17):

Welcome. Welcome, Kevin. And welcome everybody who is watching and listening to us. And it is a great pleasure to be on the show and to talk with you again and to hear, again, about how we got connected. I also very fondly remember this as it was also around quite early stages of Experts on Demand. And we have developed quite a lot since then. Quite a story here to share with you and the listeners. So, I’m extremely happy to be here and talk with you.

Kevin L. Jackson (02:55):

Well, thank you very much. I tell you, you guys have really grown over the past few years, and we’re going to talk about that. But I’m telling you, I’m so happy to see you. So, you just returned from a pretty interesting trip, can you tell us where have you been?

Marcin Buzanski (03:16):

That’s true. That’s true. And we’ll share it with our other guests here. I just came back from Ukraine, which we all know right now is fighting a war and is a neighbor to Poland, where EonD headquarters are. And, you know, it plays a special place, of course, not only in our hearts as Poland, but with EonD, we have a number of employees who are from Ukraine. And while our experts, a lot of them, have also come from Ukraine itself, we’ve also had a strong background in terms of expertise available for government assistance and government reform, which we wanted to see how can be best, of course, used to aid Ukraine.

Marcin Buzanski (04:12):

One of the things, actually, we’ve done as EonD, we started this quick program when expert fees from quick consultations can be also donated to support the humanitarian efforts in Ukraine, which EonD matches as a donation to the cause. Of course, we’ve been doing that. But, also, a little bit from my personal expertise as an expert in government capacity building, I went to see how we can help the central and regional administrations respond to this terrible situation, of course, that the country is in.

Marcin Buzanski (04:53):

And I want to share with you and our listeners, it’s always a humbling experience to see what people are capable of in times of dire straits and time of extreme situation. It takes out the best of them. And I think, you know, it’s something to share with you and our listeners that, Ukrainians are really showing that they’re very, very brave. That they’re very, very committed. And they are playing an extremely important role for the whole of Europe and the Western alliances here. So, I came back from this trip wanting to support even more and, of course, seeing the bravery and the extreme efforts that the Ukrainian population is doing currently.

Kevin L. Jackson (05:49):

Yeah. We really thank you for your humanitarian efforts. And, you know, I know the news really shows us some horrible scenes, but we can’t forget the best of people really come out in the worst of times. But from your point of view, how has this war really affected the nature of regular work across your region?

Marcin Buzanski (06:17):

Well, I think the closest part is, clearly, an effect on our employees and on their families is something that we needed to take into consideration. In the greater schemes, I think it also adds a bit of a new dimension into a certain reality where we were already starting to find ourselves. Meaning that there are remote people who are moving and they can engage in work quickly in different locations to provide their services. This has happened with a lot of Ukrainians coming through the border to Poland, but also traveling to other places, which have certain skillsets and have been looking to work, not really receive charity.

Marcin Buzanski (07:04):

And with EonD functioning in the global gig economy, we can observe that these type of different jobs are being seek from different skilled workers coming from Ukraine. So, I think the conflict where you have such a mass movement of population is showing us that people can quickly find different type of short and midterm term jobs via online platforms. And this was something that, I think, fits in also in this greater change that we are seeing globally in the work market.

Kevin L. Jackson (07:45):

So, that’s something that I actually didn’t think about. It wasn’t really top of mind. But there’s literally millions of people coming across the border into Poland and they want to work, they still have a life. But this is a completely different dimension for, you know, human resources, your HR team. I mean, companies, don’t typically design their HR department to handle a flood of refugees, especially trying to do remote work. EonD, I mean, you had to do HR, too, how did that happen?

Marcin Buzanski (08:31):

Well, I think, for us, this part is a little bit easier in the sense that we have our experienced recruiters, who are dealing with this type of short term recruitments. But I think if you look more broadly at the whole market and HR market across the whole centuries to European region, not just Poland, it is trying to respond to allow a lot of the refugees to find jobs and be able to provide support. And in some areas, for instance, like IT, this is an extremely important factor because there was a scarcity of, actually, talent and people who could be ready to work in this area. So, I think that certainly adds to the dimension.

Marcin Buzanski (09:27):

But, again, we have to, of course, see because we’re only a-month-and-a-half and we hope this conflict ends as soon as it can, but then also people will want to return home. So, for us, actually the thing we’d want most is for the people to return, but still relationships to be built so that people can find jobs.

Kevin L. Jackson (09:53):

Right. Right. Absolutely. So, in fact, I guess we probably should slow up a little bit and discuss how you actually got to where you are today. I mean, can you share a bit of your background in Poland, your training, what did you do before EonD?

Marcin Buzanski (10:16):

My background and training is, actually, I’m a political scientist in training and education. And I have degrees from Warsaw University in European Affairs and in International Affairs. But my work early on was primarily with the United Nations in government advisory. And it actually led me also to the States where I did my Master’s Degree at Columbia University in Economic and Political Development, which took me to work with the UN and other international organizations in government advisory and building government capacity across the world.

Marcin Buzanski (11:11):

And I’ve been able to travel and work in many, many countries, in Africa, in Southeast Asia, in the Middle East. And only as it happens by accident, you could say, I’ve moved on a little bit from being – as they called – international civil servant into an advisor doing consulting work and being the subject matter experts or the expert. And this is sort of what I learned or saw about how experts are sought after globally. But, also, what kind of companies try to work with them and, actually, try to find them. And while this is sort of where the first thoughts about some kind of consulting type of group or network has started to emerge.

Kevin L. Jackson (12:15):

So, you’re the co-founder of Experts on Demand, how did that happen? Did you guys bump into each other at the coffee stop or getting some [inaudible]?

Marcin Buzanski (12:24):

This is what could be called the startup moment in the story. But doing all this work as an expert or as an advisor, I’ve connected with my colleague, Bartek, who is now the CEO at EonD. And while we knew each other from years back in Poland, you know, drinking beer at university in pubs –

Kevin L. Jackson (12:54):

That’s always good.

Marcin Buzanski (12:55):

– which is always good – we’ve connected on a project and haven’t seen each other for a very, very, very long time, where he was working with one of the large international consulting companies and needed experts like myself. So, we had connected, he brought me in on a project. Well, we came to an observation and conclusion that, particularly in the field of government advisory and public sector advisory, there’s a major scarcity of experts and a very big demand for them. And this is sort of where the idea of Experts on Demand has started, where it came. Well, from there, as they say, the rest is history.

Marcin Buzanski (13:50):

It was one of those napkin discussions where we wrote the model for the company. And I must say, quite quickly it turned into us realizing that, not only those networks of experts are very much needed and there’s scarcity in several subject matter areas, not just government, and we’ve kept expanding, but we also saw the future as really merging the gig economy model with the model of high skilled expertise.

Marcin Buzanski (14:37):

And this is really where we came to the place we are today of establishing a platform of a broad group, not just the top level experts, but also the mid-level experts, the group of experts we call experts, consultants, and professionals, which is a whole new grouping for the gig economy that fits in into the globally changing demand. And this is how we’ve seen the future, and I think it’s happening before our eyes right now. And I must also say that these changes that EonD has fitted in has been really accelerated by the COVID pandemic.

Kevin L. Jackson (15:28):

Right. So, when people think about gig, the first thing that sort of jumps in into your mind are people driving Uber or whatever. But tell us more about the company. I mean, where do you operate? How do you actually source these experts? I mean, people don’t generally think they’re going to get a call out of the blue to do the work for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, for instance, as I did.

Marcin Buzanski (16:04):

For sure. For sure. Look, I think it’s about two sides. Think about the demand and the supply. So, on the demand side, we have organizations around the world which are rapidly changing into an external workforce model. So, we see more and more organizations which look for short term, midterm freelance type of employees. And what we have been seeing is they look for even more high skilled employees than before to get those positions. On the other side, we have more and more experts which are ready to engage with short term and medium term type of projects.

Marcin Buzanski (16:56):

So, how does EonD operate? We come in the middle of that. We make that match. In terms of how do we source the experts, there are a number of ways. Of course, we use open source. Like you mentioned, we connected via LinkedIn, and different other platforms. We have our recruiters, which look for the good matches for the different demands that are coming our way. But very importantly, we have been automating the process of referrals. So, we base also the growth of our network on the referrals from top experts in their field. And this has allowed a rapid expansion of our base of experts with the quality type of professionals that our clients would be looking for. So, this model allows, really, to grow organically because next experts provide referrals for next experts. And along with the open source, it allows our base to grow very strongly.

Marcin Buzanski (18:21):

Now, the next sourcing happens really automatically. Meaning, we’ve reached a level where experts or professionals sign up to our platform, because they start to know that this is the place that can get you good and interesting assignments because of our client base and because of our reputation. So, in this way, if you combine all of those elements, we have got the view of the organically growing network and sourcing our professionals that join us.

Marcin Buzanski (19:00):

Now, we operate globally, although our biggest markets right now are the Middle East and Europe. But we’ve been, at this point, supporting clients – and I want to give you the exact number – but it was 37 or 38 countries. So, already quite a few. And I think importantly, we are also at the process where our platform will grow quite a lot because of this demand for the high skilled experts to join the gig economy.

Marcin Buzanski (19:44):

So, I’m coming back to you mentioning how does a company like ours fit into the gig economy model? Well, think of it a little bit as like an Uber for the high skilled expert. And there are some large platforms where you can find freelancers, but they’re usually for, maybe, graphic design or some smaller IT jobs or some programmers. But for the high level professional, the consultant, the expert, the advisor for this level of professionals, there wasn’t really an online space for them, which is more curated and dedicated, but still can connect with this demand for the external workforce growth. And this is where we come in as EonD.

Kevin L. Jackson (20:44):

So, the thing that kind of struck me is that the information worker can be identified and picked up for these gig jobs. But, traditionally, large organizations and governments, especially, there’s a lot of trust required, a lot of knowledge of the organization or government processes. And there’s a lot of betting that’s normally done with these experts. So, you are saying now, are they loosening that up? Are they so desperate, they have to go out and find anybody on the street? I mean, this is really a big difference.

Marcin Buzanski (21:34):

Well, you’re touching on a very important point. And I believe this is something that has been part of our success, that we actually were able to provide this vetting in a semi-automated way at this point. Because when we’ve developed our base and serviced so many clients and projects, we have a good idea who is needed for what type of assignment and can match those needs to the profiles quite well. And this includes both our automatic system of connecting the request for different tags with our database, but also includes the aid of our Network Navigators Group, which are experts in thematic fields that can also look through the more complex requests.

Marcin Buzanski (22:36):

So, if you put those things together, well, they create a quite efficient vetting system that EonD operates. And that allows us to really give the good quality of the expert, of the professional that our clients need. Which, of course, it will depend on the level and length of the assignment. And every case has its specificity. But, still, we are able to make those connections quite well. And you’ve rightly pointed out, it’s a question of trust. And I think, you know, the trust in EonD by our clients is something that allows them to cut on the length of the process of identifying the person for the job.

Marcin Buzanski (23:39):

So, in a way, it’s the duty of trust that is brought onto us. And it’s part of the service that we deliver to our clients when we connect with the right people. And, of course, there is this element of speed here and how quickly it can be done. Because in today’s world, a lot of time, it’s part of the advantage that you can get the knowledge or the expertise quickly, and another part of why I think we’ve been successful in identifying the right people within the right timeframes.

Kevin L. Jackson (24:23):

Well, you know, one of the aspects of my time working through EonD for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is that I didn’t mention that I never actually set foot in the Kingdom. I’m in Northern Virginia, just outside of Washington D.C., and I supported the Kingdom from here. I was in Texas for a while. I was in California for a while. But at the very beginning, I mean, we all thought that I would be making several physical trips. I mean, I had my passport. I had visas. But in the end, I did the eight month gig completely remote. And, in fact, this was 2018. I mean, we’ve all heard about work from home now and hybrid work arrangements as the future of work. But this was 2018, nobody really did that, especially in an international gig. So, was that normal then? How has things changed from then to now? I mean, was that unusual?

Marcin Buzanski (25:39):

You know, at that time, I think it was only starting. But, of course, the whole pandemic and work from home, this was solidified in this model and everybody is used to this model at this point. And it’s much easier to engage experts. But think about this from the other side, you were ready to jump on the plane and fly at that time. But in many, many cases, good professionals and experts who can be available for an assignment, but only remote because for various reasons they can’t relocate, they cannot travel, they might not have the full time to go for a full length of a couple of months assignment, but are willing to take this type of work remotely. And this is the part of this future of work that we’re observing, which makes a a lot of experts available for clients, they wouldn’t have otherwise. And this is also the group that EonD is working with.

Marcin Buzanski (26:56):

Another thing, you know, it’s a possibility perhaps to travel, but just for a very short time and do much more work, other work, remotely. And this type of hybrid arrangement is something that we’ve seen greatly increase in numbers. And a lot of our assignments are done this way at the moment. So, probably, a big majority is either remote or in hybrid arrangements. The in-person assignments, because of our global operation, are becoming a smaller percentage or smaller fraction of it, which shows you also where the future of work is heading, particularly for this high skilled expert. And it is a new element for high skilled experts to work this way because, as you pointed out, it’s this question of trust. If you want to employ a high level professional, you want to be able to interact with this person, usually you want to make sure that it’s a right fit for your purposes as a client, as a company, or, especially, as a government or a public sector or organization that you talked about. Which, also is starting to acknowledge and allow this type of remote work model or hybrid work model. And I think the pandemic has really accelerated this change quite a lot.

Kevin L. Jackson (28:32):

So, we’ve gone from demanding consultants to be on site all the time to sort of shifting overnight to everyone working from home. And, now, we cautiously say the post-pandemic world is coming to us, and the hybrid arrangements are starting to be popular normal. They’re no longer unusual. So, as an information worker, what’s next? Will I now be in the metaverse? I have to have multiple avatars working remotely for different companies through EonD? I mean, what is your version of the metaverse [inaudible]? What’s the next step for the future of work?

Marcin Buzanski (29:33):

I would be lying if I said we’re not looking at this as well. And our different other models of representation, if you will, of experts globally.

Kevin L. Jackson (29:49):

I saw online the other day, in October, I guess, they hollow transported a group of nine people to the International Space Station. So, now, I’m going to have to think about how I’m going to be hollow transported when I do my next gig.

Marcin Buzanski (30:12):

Right. Exactly. So, yes, I think we can already envisage what the future here might hold for us. But I think the most immediate changes we’ll be seeing in the next couple of years is, really, the shift in terms of how people want to work in terms of where they are located versus where their work actually is. And I think this model is going to, you know, really solidify.

Marcin Buzanski (30:44):

The other thing, it’s something we’ve also seen globally now. We’re really moving into a project based economy. So, the operations of institutions are increasingly based on projects, which have much more agility in terms of how they’re managed and how they’re implemented. And that requires, you know, fast injections of expertise and knowledge that are centered around those projects. And if you’ve got a majority of global organizations, which are increasing to operate this way, they require a very large increase in the external workforce.

Marcin Buzanski (31:22):

So, already, organizations like Facebook, like Google, they’re moving into a 50 percent – that’s five-zero -of employees being brought as external workforce. This is your high skilled freelancer de facto. And they’re at the forefront of the change. Now, if you think about the whole global economy chasing them, plus organizations outside of the private sector joining these models, you are seeing a major global shift into an external workforce. And with that happening, the high skill, the expertise, the professionals, the advisors, and consultants, they’ll all be looking for the type of assignments and the type of work that can fit their, first of all, time availability, location availability, and specific knowledge. So, that type of agility and flexibility in the work assignments and the jobs taken, this will be increasingly the reality.

Marcin Buzanski (32:40):

In our estimation in the next couple of years, another hundred million people moving into this sort of work model. And the amount of organizations changing into this model going into hundreds of thousands globally. There’s been also research to back up this change done by Harvard Business School, done by a number of other think tanks and organizations, the World Economic Forum, so we’re seeing these changes that have been starting to happen before COVID, accelerate post-COVID. And I think, you know, now we’ll have this moment of solidifying this new reality and more and more tools, potentially including the metaverse, potentially including holograms, potentially using blockchain for easier transactions operations. And for instance, getting confirmation of somebody’s expertise verification. we’ve talked about those vetting mechanisms. All of these things will be increasingly happening.

Marcin Buzanski (34:05):

And I think one of the things EonD is striving to is to be at the forefront of the change with that element of trust. So, providing the trust through this verification of the top level expert, of the top level professional, that can be available to those different projects. Because digital trust will be a very, very important component here.

Kevin L. Jackson (34:34):

Oh, no. That’s a good term. [Inaudible] digital trust, how you can establish digital trust with respect to the competence of your external workforce. I mean, this is going to be a big requirement, a big discussion in the C-suite. So, sort of going back to the conflict briefly, one thing that we’ve seen in this war is the direct linkage to the economics and to business. I mean, the West immediately slapped a lot of restrictions on the Russian Government. And that led a lot of multinationals to have them make a decision with respect to their employees that were either in the countries or working for those countries. And there are multi-billion dollar businesses sort of shut down in the country overnight. And this will, of course, affect the staffing. So, has the recent conflict changed your views on remote work and the future of work when it comes to the gig economy for information workers?

Marcin Buzanski (36:07):

Well, you know, I think, of course, now with Russia, it’s a quite specific case. And even one could imagine that trying to take care of some of the employees who’ve been doing a good job and might have not much to do with the war in a bit of a different circumstance, maybe, could be somehow figured out for online assignments from those companies. Although, in the current sanction regime, that would be very, very difficult. But I think it shows us something else which could be a bit more difficult or even worrying from the global economy. And that’s not just the decoupling with Russia, but the potential decoupling with China, if this collision course continues because this would really, really affect the whole globalization process. But that’s on one hand.

Marcin Buzanski (37:18):

Honestly, I think it will not change that much in the sense that the demand for the professionals, the experts, to deliver their work will be there. It might just be in different formats and it might be sought after for different levels of competition. But, if anything, it will increase the need for expertise to be provided in various locations. And one can imagine, I mean, that’s not going to happen, of course, with Russia. Most likely Russia will become just very strongly isolated, I mean, closer to a North Korea model. But if there’s a block built by China, you can imagine competition for workers to be engaged in projects [inaudible] or the other.

Marcin Buzanski (38:19):

But in terms of high level expertise, look, whatever is going to happen, the real professionals will be always in demand. Now, whether that’s going to be more in the crisis mode or more in the growth mode, I think that that’s something we can be certain of. And I think that, also, the whole aspect of digitalization of the economy, that’s also not going to stop. I think, you know, we’ve forgotten a little bit just having all of our attention focused on the global geopolitical events and on the war that the technological race is still there.

Kevin L. Jackson (39:08):

Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Marcin Buzanski (39:10):

Developments are being accelerated. And, also, if one thing history teaches us is that, competition and arms races and different even wars a lot of times accelerates the development of technology rather than stop it. So, whichever dimension the geopolitical landscape looks like, we will still see a great acceleration in using remote and online expertise. And I think that those trends that we’ve been seeing for the future of work, they’re only going to accelerate in the years to come.

Kevin L. Jackson (40:00):

Well, I tell you, Marcin, when you were back in college getting your degrees in geopolitics, you probably never thought how important it would be to know that topic in the gig economy for information workers that are leveraging this advanced technology. I mean, you are finding yourself sort of at the leading edge of globalization and digitalization. So, I really thank you for your time and perspective today, Marcin. Unfortunately, though, our time has actually come to an end. But how can the audience learn more about Experts on Demand and your approach to delivering industry and government expertise globally?

Marcin Buzanski (40:59):

Well, thanks. Thanks very much for this, Kevin [inaudible]. I mean, if you asked me back then what would be the the future here, it would be very, very hard to imagine. But there we are, and that tells you all only that one of the good deeds of any expertise that they can adjust quickly and work in this new reality. And having said that, I’d really encourage all of our audience to go to our website, to go to our LinkedIn, and signup to EonD and see what kind of great opportunities you can find with us if you are open and interested in some very fascinating projects globally. And we like to take pride in taking good care of our experts so, hopefully, I’d say, you can find all of that out by signing up and checking out EonD. And, of course, you can do that on our website, on our LinkedIn pages, and be then part of our adventure here on growing as well and venturing into this future of work models. I think that there’s quite a story ahead.

Kevin L. Jackson (42:32):

Well, no, I absolutely can vouch for that. I mean, it’s four years, Marcin, that we’ve known each other. And I’m waiting to get measured for my hollow transportation suit for the next step in my future of work. So, thank you. Thank you very much.

Kevin L. Jackson (42:54):

And in closing, I would like to invite everyone to check out the wide variety of industry thought leadership that we bring here, like Marcin, on the future of work at Digital Transformers and supplychainnow.com. And you can find Digital Transformers and Supply Chain Now wherever you get your podcast, so be sure to subscribe. And so, on behalf of the entire team here at Supply Chain Now, this is Kevin Jackson wishing all of our listeners a bright and transformational future and future of work. We’ll see you next time on Digital Transformers.

Intro/Outro (43:41):

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