“It is the young generation that’s really going to define the market trends of the future. We’ve got a booming young population and global companies are realizing that they can tap into the talent that we have in Africa.”

– Gugulethu Hughes, Founder of Clinch

Many people that work in the supply chain industry never intended for their career to follow that path. Gugulethu Hughes, the Founder of Clinch and a procurement and supply chain professional with over a decade of experience across different sectors, can make an even bigger claim. He ended up in supply chain without realizing it was supply chain.

Throughout his career, he has had to work through some unique challenges because he is located in Africa: access to technology, access to education, access to data, and pressing human rights issues such as child labor. Fortunately, with a strong family upbringing – one that emphasized hard work and education – he now has a successful track record in supply chain and logistics.

In this episode, Gugulethu – known to his friends as Hughes – tells Supply Chain Now Co-hosts Enrique Alvarez and Scott Luton about:

· Why corporate social responsibility programs are falling short of their stated objective to eliminate child labor for the cobalt and other mining-related supply chains

· The huge potential that tech companies (and others) see in the young talent currently coming of age in Africa

· What Hughes sees as the number one challenge for the startup economy in Africa, and how it is likely to be resolved

Intro/Outro (00:03):

Welcome to supply chain. Now the voice of global supply chain supply chain now focuses on the best in the business for our worldwide audience, the people, the technologies, the best practices, and today’s critical issues. The challenges and opportunities stay tuned to hear from those making global business happen right here on supply chain. Now

Scott Luton (00:32):

Scott Luton and Enrique Alvarez here with you own supply chain. Now welcome to today’s show. We’ve got an excellent show teed up here today, but Hey, first off Enrique. And when this, this episode drops, it won’t be your birthday, but today it is your birthday. So happy birthday, my dear friend and partner in Enrique Alvarez. Thank you so much, Scott. It’s a pleasure being here. It’s going to be a really interesting conversation with an amazing guest and I’m just, uh, as always just kind of happy, uh, proud to be your co-host and, uh, ready to learn some more from Hughes, from you agree today. Oh, I and I did on my birthday. Ah, well, you know, that’s okay. You get the past today. And frankly it is like a birthday every day for me that I get to work alongside you and interview guests like, like we’ve got teed up here today. So wonderful episode, our guests has spent more than a decade in supply chain working in a number of sectors lately. He’s been working with investment firms, looking to partner with a startup community in Africa, which is really cool. You’ll also pick right up. I promise you on our guests passion for a variety of industry issues impacting the entire continent of Africa. So let’s welcome in Gugulethu Hughes’s founder at Clinch.

Gugulethu Hughes (01:51):

I mean, Scott, thank you for having me on the show and Rica like Scott Sage, you get a pass for letting the kids out of the bag. That’s your birthday present from me.

Scott Luton (02:02):

Thank you so much. Both of you. You’re so generous. Um, ah, I feel like a embarrassed now. Such an amateur. No, no, no. Hey that’s okay. We’ve got a great conversation. We’ve got teed up with Hughes now. You’ll notice when we introduced him, uh, his first name is Gugulethu which, uh, is, uh, is short or translated. It means our pride, which how cool is that to be named, uh, for, uh, his parents pride essentially, but he goes informally by Hughes and you’ll hear us refer to our guests like that throughout this outstanding conversation that we’ve got teed up. So Hughes. You’re ready to dive right in.

Gugulethu Hughes (02:43):

Definitely. You’re ready to dive right in Scott. All right,

Scott Luton (02:47):

Let’s do it. Let’s so before we get to the issues of the day, um, you know, let’s let our audience get a chance to connect with you and learn more about you kinda like we have through previous conversations and phone calls. So tell us where are you from and give us a couple anecdotes about your upbringing.

Gugulethu Hughes (03:03):

Yes, I’m from South Africa, Kenya, um, uh, I’ve got three siblings. I’m the first point in FMLA for basically raised by amazing parents, uh, in a very close knit family, typical African family for me put it that way. You know, the traditional African family it’s subsistence by nature. So it’s not only limited to your immediate family. You know, you’ve got the cousins, they’ve got the aunts that all from the broader church, if I may put it that way of the family and these are all the people that, um, I would say shaped my upbringing, uh, I must add that I wasn’t really born on a silver blade, but I was definitely born in a very, very disciplined family. And, and, and that discipline that I, I adopted from my upbringing. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s something that I look at now. Um, I realized that it’s having an impact in, in, in all spheres of my life, which is quite a great thing. I mean, obviously when you’re growing up as a child and you’re getting, you know, the discipline from the parents, it feels like abuse when you’re still growing up. Cause you’re, but now when you’re an adult, you look back and then you realize that, I mean, this is where the real meal is met and I’m very grateful for my parents.

Scott Luton (04:26):

I love that. So, so, so nothing if I’m hearing you, right. Nothing was giving given to you as a child, you had to earn it and work hard for it.

Gugulethu Hughes (04:36):

Exactly. I had to work hard for it. I mean, interesting enough, you know, um, my family in, in as much, you know, it’s, it wasn’t a rich family, but there was a proper family ethos in terms of, of, of putting certain things into a priority base number and being education. My family is, is, is you had a very active role even in society, like in terms of educating, um, children, in being leaders in education. So I always had pupil in my family to look up to, we had made it through working hard, uh, entertaining, good education over and above, uh, other soft skills that I gained from one’s upbringing. So I always had, uh, fecals to look forward to. And I think that’s what made me become what I have now, because I’ve always had those fecals. But if I’m in defied all the odds and hid met a big name for themselves.

Scott Luton (05:36):

Mm what? So, um, so Enrique, I think from here, and this is a wonderful start to a conversation, uh, I like how Hughes tells it like it is. And you can tell right away that the foundation, no, no wonder. You’re so passionate about some things we’re going to be talking about today. Uh, I love to hear any, any, any time someone references their ethos that, uh, impacted their upbringing

Enrique Alvarez (05:58):

And their family, kind of the culture that they grew up in, those are the folks that change the world. So Enrique let’s, let’s dive into his, uh, playing journey. No. Um, and once again, Hugh sings for being here with us, it’s always a pleasure to, to meet, uh, driven and committed and passionate people like yourself. And thanks to your parents. It sounds like so great. Um, tell us a little bit more about your professional career now so that our listeners can, can get to know you better, uh, on that, on that, um, dimension as well.

Gugulethu Hughes (06:30):

Right? It’s, it’s actually interesting. I’ve been itching to mention this to Scott after my last conversation with him, how I actually landed onto into the supply chain field. So I worked for this family as a, as a landscape designer. That’s offensive word for someone who does gardening. So I did get an internship. So I did gardening for this family a couple of years back. That’s more than a ticket. Yeah. Couple of years back. So now I was doing gardening, this family, they had a small business that they were running from one of the coverages. So they were into the business of essential oils. They were focusing on essential oils, two big oils that are popular in the world, tea tree oil and lavender oil all the way doing is pouring the oils into the bubbles and supplying to a couple of pharmacists. So there were days when they were very busy, then they’ll ask me, drop the lawnmower.

Gugulethu Hughes (07:28):

I can come and help us pack this. Uh, what goes into, in, into this small, uh, van here. So, I mean, uh, from there, the company, as it grew from being a garage based car, they got premises, uh, cause they were expanding. Now they’d got in a big contract with one of the big companies in essay to supply the same product. So they had to find a bigger premises. So I mean, I continued doing my landscape, designing with them until they called me again like, Oh, do you mind coming to help us for a week just to help us pack all this stock that we have in the warehouse. So I got, no problem. I’ll come through. So I went through for a week on a Friday, by the end of that week, then they asked me, do you mind coming again for the next week?

Gugulethu Hughes (08:13):

And then, you know, just help us sort out things out because it’s still a mess. I’m like, yeah, I’m getting mom in. We’re going to come through. I went through after the end. I mean, after the 14 days, they’re like, well, another week until I’m in the fourth week, I was asked, would you like to work for us? Full-time then? Yeah. I mean, that was my break into the supply chain. I’d never worked in supply chain consciously. I mean the world to the supply chain, but conscious life never be worked in a, in an environment that’s for my, the, uh, no one in supply chain. So my first break was in warehousing. So then I was given the role of, of, of being aware. I was assistant awake as well as a sustained for probably a year or so. They promoted me to being the whales manager, which, um, I did wait in that role. So now data as part of the executive committee for the company. And I was part of the decision-making

Scott Luton (09:09):

Really, really quick. Let me just interrupt you for a second because what’s cool here. Uh, many things, but number one, you kind of order fulfillment is what got you in. And it was the magnet that got you into the industry and also in a startup environment, which is really cool to be, to break into supply chain essentially, uh, in, in a startup environment and then to, and then clearly the company, uh, like to promote from within. So, you know, from a part-time to full-time to permanent employee, to warehouse manager, to eventually like you just described on a leadership team where you had input and could make decisions and, and, and it sounds like shape the strategy of the company. That is pretty cool Hughes,

Gugulethu Hughes (09:50):

Definitely. And just to check your back still on that point, I think when I mentioned my, my upbringing in terms of the discipline from the family, the family culture, family, ethos, I think it’s just the same element, but caught me rising from, from, from doing gardening too, to being, um, a Warehouser sustained, to being a warehouse manager, obviously something that they were seeing in me in terms of the discipline and the artwork that I was putting in, you know, though I wasn’t, because it’s something that’s has been embedded in me for like, since my upbringing. So it’s something that still goes back to my upbringing. And also, like you mentioned demand fulfillment at the time. I mean, cost was my first time waking in Wales and I didn’t know much about supply chain. What I use that I was working as a warehouse manager and I was doing my best, or I mean, with the opportunity that I had been given. So that’s how I actually met my first prac uh, into the supply chain field.

Scott Luton (10:53):

Is, is there something that you remember that your parents, your mom, your dad, or someone influential in your upbringing kind of kept telling you that you can kind of relate to when you were doing some of these warehousing, uh, activities and later on, as you kind of continue to escalate the, uh, the ladder, um, towards the executive group, was there something that you still kind of hold dear and it’s practical that you can share with our audience?

Gugulethu Hughes (11:18):

Definitely. Um, one person was very critical in my upbringing was my grandmother. Unfortunately she passed on, uh, two or three years back. She, she, she always told me when I was growing up that, um, I should never set boundaries for myself. I shouldn’t create any walls in front of me. The world is my oyster. So I’ve always ran with that. So even when I got the break into, into, into warehousing for me put it that way, it was the first for me. I could have been scared and said, no, I’ve never done this. I cannot do this, but I just went in there with all my heart. I mean, and this coming from, from that, um, advice, you know, like the words, but I still recall to this day from, from my grandmother and I carry it with me all the time.

Enrique Alvarez (12:06):

Yeah. Never, never giving up, never kind of settling, always trying to make a change and your surroundings. That sounds, it sounds like a great story. I’m glad that you shared it. I now know why you were actually, so as tend to tell us, cause, uh, cause it’s incredible. Is there, uh, during those times, and I now led you continue the, the, your career in a second, but during those times, while you were in warehousing cause warehousing and fulfillment, it’s always a pain in logistics, right? So always like tricky. It’s always challenging. Was there something there around that time that, uh, that you thought, well, this is an Eureka moment. It’s like, Hey, that realized this, I could do this differently. It could change things. How was kind of that progression for you as you kind of learned the industry a bit more?

Gugulethu Hughes (12:51):

It was very, very interesting. And I think one of the Eureka moments is I got to, to, to wake or liaise with, with different people. I mean, uh, we had a third party logistics combined, which was doing the actual collections and distribution to the distribution centers for our clients. Um, at the time when I started me being new that no, there was lacking big time and I hate to use the skills that I have naturally for my bringing to negotiation skills, collaboration, make them understand that we’re working together as a team, not against each other. I think through that, that’s how I ended up getting promoted to the position of warehouse manager because now I managed to put together a aware oil team. People were waking together instead of working against each other. And I mean, it did bear good results at the end, cause the company continued to grow up to this day. I went into work for that company for like, um, probably seven, eight years.

Enrique Alvarez (13:57):

What did, what did you do after that? And of course like, uh, I will also like you to, to tell us a bit more about your leadership style. Cause it sounds like you’ve put a very efficient team together and I completely agree with you. It’s really something, uh, critical, uh, having a strong team kind of supporting your growth and the growth of the company. But tell us, tell us more what happened afterwards and, and tell us a bit more about your leadership style as well.

Gugulethu Hughes (14:22):

Um, I’m a very people driven person. Um, that’s without the pupil, I don’t see any progress. So I’m the person that you might have good warehouse management system or transport management system or ERP. But if you, you, you’re not invested in, in your pupil, you’re not relating well to your staff, then you bound to fail. So my, my leadership style has always been, people-centric more focused on pupil. You get people on board, um, you, you are bound to, to, to achieve more in, in, in people. You’ll be surprised how much people really appreciate having a leader. That’s present with them in their daily struggles at work. You might not really help them on their personal issues. But just to know that they’ve got someone in leadership who represents them, who is on their side, um, they’ll give you a hundred percent effort. So I’m, I’m a people focused person.

Enrique Alvarez (15:22):

I completely agree again. It’s very powerful and, uh, definitely effective. Um, continue with your trajectory if you don’t mind. And, uh, tell us a little bit more. So what happened afterwards? Uh, once you were already part of the executive committee for this, uh, company, what else, what else did you do?

Gugulethu Hughes (15:40):

Yeah, so the other thing interesting that Japan, every time, so I’m working in, in, in this company in warehousing, um, I’m still not consciously aware that this is supply chain. And when I was growing up, I’ve always wanted to do law or I had to study for degree in law because of I’ve got a cousin of mine. She did well, she went on to graduate. I think she was in Russia. Now she’s a practicing investment lawyer. So I always looked up to her and we’re very close. So I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to start, you know, so much that I applied to one of the universities to study for it, to bring in lawyers, actually they accepted. Then around that time, my then employer, she, she offered me, she said to me, um, she had a, a brother young brother, um, that she wanted to sponsor for studies, but he wasn’t interested then say, you know what?

Gugulethu Hughes (16:33):

I’ve given someone in opportunity to study and, uh, I was going to pay for this person, but they’re not interested. Would you, like, I can pay for your status if you want to, to, to pursue anything that you want to study. I was like, yeah, definitely. Um, so like, okay, look for the courses that you want to do at that time. Then I was like, you know, now I’m very much aware that, okay, this is a supply chain. And really, I want to give back to the combine and that I’m waking for in the best way for me is probably to, to start to something that’s gonna directly benefit the company. You know, in terms of operations. I know lawyers audience coming in, uh, uh, strategic field as a strategic partner to the company, but I wanted the company to benefit from me operation it. So I started doing my research. Um, and then yeah, I ended up finding a good program with the chartered Institute of procurement and supply in the UK, but they branch out worldwide. So that’s how I ended up studying for procurement and supply chain. And, and I have the company pay for, for my studies.

Enrique Alvarez (17:41):

So Hughes, did I hear you say that lawyers do not provide any bottom line impact on businesses? Exactly what I heard?

Gugulethu Hughes (17:52):

Well, yeah, they’re good. They’re good. Strategic partners. You gotta, you gotta have their like insurance. You must have.

Scott Luton (18:03):

Hey. And of course any attorneys listened to us. We’re, we’re only having fun. You do have to have, especially if you, as you’re building a business, I love how, um, one of the elements you’re touching on the, I really love that that really appealed to me from a supply chain standpoint is it’s constant problem solving, miss making an impact it’s delivering on that order. That is it’s so tied into the results of the business and, and how you provide value to the consumers. It really it’s one of the best parts about being a splotch. And I think that, and in a, in a, in a related note, you know, you’re working together because there’s a, there’s a greater mission. There’s a more noble mission. There’s a bigger picture, uh, mission. And I think that for many folks, I’ve rubbed elbows with whether it’s in manufacturing or logistics or whatever that appealed to many of them. In fact, it really reminds me of my time in the military. I think there’s a lot of common elements there, but he uses that. One of the things that kept you, uh, you mentioned for seven or eight years working for in, in that, in that initial role, is that one of your favorite aspects about a supply chain professions?

Gugulethu Hughes (19:05):

Um, definitely. I mean, continuous problem solving. You never really know, or I mean, what my teacher next, you can plan as much as you want, do a demand planning, but the supply chain, you never know what’s going to hit you. It might be the weather that’s for now. It’s an exit. And that has happened in the stealing the truck from, you know, coming through to connect the code. So supply chain, you never really know what’s happening in one of the, of the interesting things I think with us this side, um, every time, obviously now we’ve gained a pace in terms of digitization, where you see, um, supply chain companies adopting, uh, supply chain systems like warehouse management systems, many are still lagging behind. So for me at the time, uh, when I started with the company, there was no way as management system. So we had to do everything on Microsoft Excel.

Gugulethu Hughes (19:54):

Remember at that time, uh, I actually lent Microsoft Excel was working with that company. I self-taught, so we’re just controlling stock via, um, Excel. Uh, and I’m in with Conchita now. And again, you go and count. There’s no systems or two. I look back now and I realize that the trust that the company had put in me to always, you know, I have the right quantities in time for this page manual. And without the system aging, you know, it’s quite a big task. And, and, and that’s still the case with most, uh, companies not only in, in South Africa, but in, in, um, in Africa, in general where the, the intake of technology systems, uh, it’s still a very low, but yeah, it does make systems do make the planning easier though. Like I say, supply chain, you never know what my teacher next. Like we had 19, like

Scott Luton (20:50):

A ship stuck in the Suez canal, uh, drought, a drought and Taiwan for the first time in 50 something years that’s impacting the semiconductor business. I mean, you name it, it, the curve balls are, uh, I’m not sure what surpasses major league curve balls, but that’s what supply chain curve balls are. Um, yeah. So Enrique, uh, I liked how you, you were asking huge to continue that trajectory. Um, here’s if it’s appropriate, can we talk about what you’re doing now?

Gugulethu Hughes (21:18):

Okay. So at the moment, um, uh, working with a supply chain consulting firm that I’m contracted to, um, weight-based scale working as a project consultant, quite an interesting field because now, um, unlike the other job that other previous jobs, that I’ve yet where I worked in warehousing, because when I left the company that I worked for for seven years, I started my own thing. And then I went back to the job market and I ended up in warehousing again, until I joined the supply chain consulting firm, which has been very interesting because they’re now, uh, waking as a project consultant, you get to, to work, uh, in interact with different companies with different pupil. I mean, over and above doing the systems work of implementing systems, you’re also growing your professional network and I’ve seen it with some clinics that I’ve worked with that, you know, they, they developed, um, very good connections. I’ve done the same with, with people that we work with, that we implement this, we implement the systems and they’ve gotten other opportunities and moved on. Some it moved to the UK is doing other big things, you know? And, and that’s one of the things about supply chain and that’s why it’s called the supply chain. There’s these, you know, this is the bass boats of notes and, and, and you never really know where the next one can take you.

Scott Luton (22:39):

Yes. Well said you do. You never know. You never know, even if you’ve got a crystal ball that the warranty on crystal balls these days, I think it expire after a couple hours. So, uh, things change so fast. All right.

Gugulethu Hughes (22:52):

Yeah. But just to, just to jump in there, Scott, um, another interesting thing that I’m doing at the moment I did mentioned it to you previously is, um, doing deal sourcing and business development for, for Cambridge capital that Ben got on. You already know him. I’d never done that before. Um, I actually, how we met with, with Ben also, it was via Twitter. We started chatting on the DMS, it went to an email. Then I met a proposal to, to work with them for me, the passion, because when I look at the developed a weld, um, and, and see the past that the developed world is growing, I need to, my passion is to then bring the people from the developing world, from the developed world to work with, with Africans, because we’re lacking behind obviously due to historical issues. But then, uh, that’s why I always find enough within my Twitter feed. Most of my contacts in supply chain, it’s people from the developed world from the U S from, from Europe. And I make sure that from those relationships that I build, I’m able to bring in, uh, those people into working with the, with, uh, different individuals or companies in, in, in Africa. So that’s how I ended up waking with Ben Gordon, which exposed me to quite a lot of things, uh, cause I something that I’d never done. And now I even understand the African justice sector more than I thought I did love it,

Scott Luton (24:24):

Love that. And of course, uh, Ben Gordon has joined us a couple of times here on supply chain now and tequila, sunrise, and he’s, he is quite the mover and shaker and business maker. Uh, but we’re going to talk more about the African logistics scene here, momentarily, Enrique, if you’re good, I want to dive into there’s three big topics that, uh, Hughes is very passionate about that we’re gonna dive into. Are you good with moving right along? Okay. Anything else you want to know? I think, uh, I think it’s, uh, it’s gonna be very interesting to hear Hugues, uh, take on some of these issues that we’re about to talk about. And I think, uh, he’s trajectory and successful career kind of allow him to, to have this view, like this macro view of things, because you have done so many different things throughout your career, and you kind of know all the different angles that you have become, uh, uh, I’m sure, a very successful supply chain consultant.

Scott Luton (25:20):

And I think that your experience is incredibly valued. So Knight, thank you for sharing your story with us today. And let’s definitely talk about this things that you’re very passionate about. And I will said, so, so first up here is we wanna talk about the enormous challenge of child labor, especially in Africa. So pulled some data and, and this state is about four or five years old. Uh, we’ll I’ll do, I’ll do, I’ll do better next time I promise. But this is a big, this is a huge challenge. So according to the internal labor organization in 2016, uh, one fifth of all children in Africa or involved are involved in child labor as of 2016, that’s twice as many as any other region in the world. And 9% of those children are working in hazardous roles, which unfortunately is also, uh, more than any other region in the world. So, so with that kind of as a backdrop, the enormous challenge that is child labor in Africa, give us some of your thoughts there.

Gugulethu Hughes (26:16):

Definitely a very, very big challenge. Um, Scott, um, it’s, it’s very sad. Um, I mean, there’s quite a number of countries that, um, leading the path and that in terms of, of, of reported cases of child labor, I remember even with the data that we can get from different sources, um, it’s only a reported data, but the issues of child labor, uh, more than what the fecals that we get. That’s for example, in countries like the democratic Republic of Congo, [inaudible], there’s many more other African countries where these serious cases of child labor. And if you look at the happenings, it’s such that the main culprits that are perpetuating that ill is it’s the multinational companies, because they’re the ones who are in, in, in, in these economies in most cases, it’s way of what extractive materials you call cobalt and so forth. That’s where it’s happening.

Gugulethu Hughes (27:17):

Uh, for example, with the democratic Republic of Congo, obviously they’re supplying the world with 70% of, of, of cobalt. So you’ve got kids there that are awaking in, in, um, in these actors, in our minds, there is no personal protective equipment, neither for the kids, nor for the adults. And, and this material ends up in, in, in, because also it goes to China in most cases, because now China is trying to lead, uh, the world just being the biggest manufacturer of, uh, Evy, uh, batteries. So that’s where most of the Copa is doing. They’ve got eight mines there that they own in the Jersey. And in almost all of them, these toddler buy cases, it’s the same with another big multinational company. Like GenCos, they’re involved in that. Yes, they do come with the, with, with corporate social responsibility programs, but, um, to stop that from continuing.

Gugulethu Hughes (28:10):

But I feel like, um, they’re not really doing enough because at the end of the day, they’re still buying. They’ve got their people buying all, all the proceeds from child labor, from the artisanal miners, which, which instills the future from those children, because they are not really getting anything back in return. Now I’ll give you an example. I mean, like the DRC is one of the poorest countries in the world yet. It’s, it’s probably the richest country in the world in terms of the minerals that it’s called those children that are waking them in the minds. Some of them have never seen as much for them. They will probably never see it. And, and all, all electronic products like smartphones and so forth, they all contain that mineral

Scott Luton (28:54):

Well, I’m, I’m glad you brought that up because I think for some of our listeners, they may not be aware of, of cobalt and, and how, uh, it’s penetrated so many different products. Of course, lithium ion batteries, cobalt is, is heavily used for those manufacturer magnetic, uh, high strength alloys, which of course aloe is, are used across across industries. You know, glass ceramics, inks paints a lot more, but it, it, it is a, is an end demand. And unfortunately, as you’re pointing out Hughes, that demand is being met partially at least by utilizing, uh, child labor and dangerous child labor that, right.

Gugulethu Hughes (29:31):

Yeah, definitely. So in, you know, just to, to add another, another entry to, to that debate. So also to understand child labor, you also to understand the various African cultures. So in most cases, African culture is such that, uh, the, the family unit also societies were subsistent by nature before colonialism, right? Subsistence, meaning that they, I mean, they could take care of themselves, but they’re now critical to the growth of an African child is for the child to be involved in all the lab activities within the family that the family teams fit at any given time, which is fine because then it builds character. It teaches skills, but then the, there has to be aligned that is drawn to say, in as much as my child can do this kind of labor, it must not interfere with their growth. It must not interfere with them acquiring education and other skills outside of the family.

Gugulethu Hughes (30:34):

So in most cases now what’s happening in, in, in, in these countries like the DRC is that you’ve got parents, um, they’ve gone through, through that same, same route of waking in mind. They’re not getting anything until they eventually get sick. Cause remember that I mentioned they in artisanal mining, there is no personal protective equipment. So you’ve got dust, you’ve got injuries and also forth. So you’ve got parents that are literally sick at home so much that the child now becomes the breadwinner. That child is forced to go in web in the minds. You know, when they’re not supposed to remit, it’s now a commissioner of mine. The child is not even supposed to be it’s, it’s, it’s wrong, it’s ethical. But now to keep the family alive, uh, the child now needs to literally become the, the breadwinner

Scott Luton (31:20):

I can for a second. Uh, and reggae would welcome your thoughts here. I know that that, uh, y’all do business. Uh, I know vector does business globally, but, uh, I’ve got team members, uh, across African continent as well. Um, question for you. He is, I think one of the cool things that we’ve seen with, uh, and cool doesn’t do justice. One of the wonderful, extraordinary and uplifting things we’ve seen as technology continues to transform how business has done globally is it’s brought a ton of visibility to some of our toughest, oldest and newest challenges. And, and whether it’s deforestation, whether it is, uh, slave labor, um, and hopefully child labor is put a visibility, put a spotlight on these things, right. And brought it, some of it at least to surface levels. So, so that organizations and countries and, and bad actors can be held responsible. Do you have similar hope that, um, the same spotlight will be used to drive change, uh, and that with this child labor issue that, that plagues, um, the African continent,

Gugulethu Hughes (32:23):

Uh, well, uh, it definitely, I mean, technology like mentioned it, it brings out the visibility, but I mean, for, for, for us in order to, to gain that visibility, it means we need to input something into the systems. And that’s where we are lacking in, in terms of, of, of, uh, inputting their data in cases of child labor. So that, you know, the reporting is, is very much extensive, but I think technology is doing a great job of, of changing the world and people have bought all those ills and so much that even the companies, these multinationals, when they now begin to, to, uh, come up with corporate social responsibility programs that, you know, try to address the ills of chocolate bites, it’s, it’s, it’s one coming from, from that visibility because it’s exposure now they’re being exposed for, you know, being participating or, um, in those activities.

Gugulethu Hughes (33:18):

Then, you know, that’s where technology has benefits us, but all the end above technology also, um, I think we’ve, we’ve got a number of, of, of, uh, non, for profit organizations and peer groups, uh, that, um, uh, actually focused on that area of, of addressing child labor by India. They are amounting that pressure on the corporates and governments in general, to, to look at that issue, you know, so that, it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s really just to the, the minimum. So I think technology is definitely going to be the biggest differentiator in terms of how do we proceed from here? How do we address the issue? Technology gives us the opportunity to create some visibility.

Enrique Alvarez (33:58):

It’s, um, it’s a little bit of a shame as well that we have to kind of rely on technology and accountability to do the right thing when leaders of those companies should be doing the right things, just because they are the right things to do. But, uh, but to your point, Hughes, I think technology and accountability and the new consumers that are coming up and growing quickly are going to make a difference. They’re going to demand their brands and their products to be sourced responsibly. And hopefully we’ll see that in the leadership of those companies as the, as time passes, right. I’m really hopeful. I’m very excited for the new generation. So I see it in my children when they’re old enough to kind of like participate in everything that’s going on from an economic standpoint, I I’m sure that they’re going to have a different approach towards, towards issues like this and, and this just child labor, no matter where, what the main reason it is like a poor conditions with the parents that kind of cause the parents to stop working.

Enrique Alvarez (34:54):

And then they have to go in to sustain the family or other ways it’s just wrong. It really is just wrong. And if companies don’t see that and if also society don’t see it, then, then there’s a big, big, bigger issue there. Excellent point. And, and as we’re seeing with a variety of industry issues and societal issues, consumers are demanding more and more of the actions taken. So, and that’s, that’s a great thing. Um, so I, I know that we could talk, you know, doing, you’re talking about child labor issues across the globe and 10 minutes never does it justice, but we’ve got a couple of the big topics use it. We’d love for you to weigh in on, but I want to give you the last word on, uh, on this topic. Um, yeah.

Gugulethu Hughes (35:38):

Um, I’m actually just going to add on to what I mentioned, reconvention that, um, it’s, it’s very sad, but we, we, I, having to pressure this, uh, big companies to do things right when they actually are supposed to be doing things right. I mean, in the first place we talked about technology, how technology gives us, enables us to have some visibility, but then also now if we dig deep into the supply chain of, of, of the same technologies that we are using, it said, because it ends up becoming ironical because the laptops and computers and smartphones that we use to somehow address the same issues of charred nearby, they contain the same, uh, materials that have been gained from, from, you know, unfair labor practices. So, um, and, and I think it’s a cycle that needs to be broken, like, and we can mention with what kids ending up becoming breadwinners it’s a site is sooner or later, this kids will gravitate to being a Dallas, they’ll have their own families.

Gugulethu Hughes (36:39):

Remember they’ve been working in the mines for years as kids, by the time they become adults already. Some were some are they, health is, is, you know, it’s, it’s affected because most of them don’t have the personal protective equipment. So then they pass on that to the kids will now end up having to wait for them. So it’s a sad cycle and in some, with some are, needs to be broken. And I think it’s the responsibility for us also is supply chain peopple because it all boils down to supply chain, like squatter really saves the world is a supply chain. We need to do a more wherever we can, you know, at different fields. And also, you know, in terms of question ties in the consumer, the modern day consumer, because, um, at the point of sale, I mean, mostly people are not questioning where the product is coming from, but we, we seeing that happen. We’ve got, you know, the new generation asking questions,

Scott Luton (37:34):

Agreed. And, and, you know, I know some folks aren’t yet believers in blockchain, but one of the best, most practical, uh, practical applications of blockchain is ensuring that we don’t source and we don’t support and blindly support some of these issues that are produced using resources that, that shouldn’t be used and taking advantage of people and, and governments and, and you name it. So, uh, it’s great to see blockchain, uh, be applied in such a meaningful, impactful way. And, and of course the use and application of blockchain is only going to grow so many other use cases.

Enrique Alvarez (38:08):

I just very quickly Scott, the responsibility that Hughes mentions. I think it’s something worth noting because, uh, this is all about supply chain, right? And you have a really big, broad audience when it comes to supply chain on something that you mentioned, Hughes, it’s their responsibility. It’s also in EV at every single step of the supply chain, right? So the consumers do their part by putting pressure, but why are the steamship lines shipping things that are, they know, are manufactured using child labor? Why are companies in logistics, trucking companies, or, I mean, I think we’re all part of the problem. And, uh, and we all have to be part of the solution. If we want this thing to end and Hughes, you pointed out something that I just realize it’s, it’s critical, right? I mean, there’s the manufacturing and the Purdue production, but the first truck that takes any of that material in this case cobalt or whatever, it’s also being part of the problem. I mean, they should stop shipping those products if they’re not sourced, uh, I guess responsibly.

Scott Luton (39:04):

Mm, excellent. Excellent points there. I want to, I want to shift gears on a much lighter note cause there’s some really incredible things happening, uh, across the, um, the continent of Africa, right. Uh, kind of across the market. Um, and I think, and, and Hughes correct me. I think there’s 55 countries that make up the African continent. I think some folks is

Gugulethu Hughes (39:27):

That right? Yeah, that’s correct. I think

Scott Luton (39:29):

Kind of like the States, I think we talked about this a few weeks back, you know, some folks don’t realize just how many different cultures within a culture or across the U S 50 States. They act very differently. They have their own governments, you know, there’s trade issues between them. And I think a lot of folks when they hear the word Africa that make the same assumptions, right. But there’s 55 unique, uh, countries. And of course, a plethora of countries, uh, of cultures and communities that even further beyond those 55. So the good news is the market is shifting for a variety of reasons. I like how Ernst young puts it here. They say, quote, global investors. Now come to Africa more often for the promise of its people, rather than for its physical properties in quote. And that’s, that is a, um, a wonderful, I can’t call it a trend because it’s happening now. It’s been happening for years. You know, the promise of the people, the workforce, the ideas, the innovation, you name it, that’s, that’s what is, seems to be making the, uh, the African market thrive. But what’s your take what’s, what’s some of the secret sauce that’s making the African economy.

Gugulethu Hughes (40:36):

Yeah. I mean, I think that’s a good report from instant young. Um, all, they ended up above the extractives that we in, in raw materials that we have, um, in Africa, we’ve got a warming young population and, and, and, and companies, our companies, uh, are realizing that they can tap into, into the talent that we have also in Africa, in, in, in the young, um, population, uh, I’ve seen big companies like Amazon Facebook, they’re setting up their Africa headquarters in different African countries, which is, you know, which, which shows the Promius, uh, I mean, uh, for Africa and you look at the e-commerce sector, I mean, it’s projected to grow by leaps and bounds in the next coming years in Africa, due to the booming population. Also mostly young people, because it is the young generation that’s really going to define the market trends of the future. So combined is, are now dropped by companies. I, you know, chipping into the area of services economy, you know, with a focus on after tapping into the child end and the young population that we have. It’s quite interesting. Yes. There’s going to be challenges, regulatory challenges, um, and you know, other instances of unfair maybe level practices, but, you know, it’s a step in the right direction. It’s definitely a step in the right direction.

Scott Luton (41:57):

Agreed. And that’s a great point that extractive industries, you know, that we’re, there’s been a, uh, such a reliance and, and for, for centuries, you know, on that only extract extractive side, but, but now it’s invest, it’s it’s everything, but which is such a, a warm breath of fresh air. It’s going to provide a lot of opportunity for many folks and bring a ton of ideas and innovation to the global industry, which is, is really cool. So Enrique before, um, we talked with Hughes about one of our favorite topics, which is startup and startup environment, startup communities. Anything else, any observations you’d like to weigh in on, on just kind of the bigger picture of the booming economy across Africa? Yeah, no, for us, in particular, at vector Africa, we consider a strategic strategic region. Uh, we’re growing extensively in Africa. It’s a, it’s an amazing continent full of really talented people, creative, uh, innovative and just advanced in many, many ways.

Scott Luton (42:57):

So, uh, no, I use second, everything that Hugh said and, uh, G I just have two companies, the big companies are realizing this and they’re moving towards this and they know that they have to shift their strategies from consuming materials in Africa and mining Africa to creating more than what you can when you’re consuming. Right? Yes, absolutely. Ton of opportunity. Okay. Let’s talk a Hughes. I love love, as you were talking earlier, earlier in that interviewed first half, kind of what you do now, you know, kind of helping to find deals and investments, and which is a win-win for all parties, oftentimes so focused on a thing you’re focused on the African logistics startup environment. And, and if you’re not, you’ll correct me, I’m sure. But tell, tell us clearly what the last topic we identified. Some reasons why the economy and opportunities are opening up for many folks, but what else would you add from a startup environment? And then, and then talk about if you have any examples of we’d love to, we’d love to kind of hear some of the stories.

Gugulethu Hughes (44:00):

Um, yeah, I mean, the startup environment in, in, in, in Africa, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s forming, um, coming up, right. Um, within the financial services sector is there’s lots of, uh, startup companies coming up, uh, mostly in Nigeria, which is, uh, biggest, uh, one of the biggest economies or the most populous African country is Nigeria. There’s a, the economy way where you find that in the economy to a larger degree, it’s still very informal, but then now it has created an opportunity for, for, for all the savvy young guys in the startup environment to come up with quite interesting solutions in, in, in logistics and payments and equal means quite a number of them that have come up with great things. But my focus, like you mentioned, uh, has been, um, the logistics sector in terms of, of startups that are coming up here. So, uh, the focus whilst doing the deal sourcing is only been on, on the startups.

Gugulethu Hughes (45:04):

It’s also been on the overall logistics sector in Africa is all. And what I’ve noticed is, is, uh, during the period that I’ve been doing, this is, um, there’s lots of young own startup companies that are doing great things so much that if they could get capital incentives or investments, they’ll definitely scale their operations and, and, you know, and become a force to reckon with in the, in the top world, capital is the main challenge for these startup companies. And then these big companies like Imperial logistics, uh, they are known globally that are doing well. Um, I’ve seen instances of them also using the services of startups. Most of the startups it’s in technology has to do with technology, um, systems for supply chain, they’re utilizing the services of, of those companies. So, yeah, it’s, it’s, um, very upbeat and bullish on the, uh, in inspire the future of the startup ecosystem is concerned in Africa and economies is the biggest differentiator.

Gugulethu Hughes (46:12):

These days, lots of consumerism as is the case all over the world. But, you know, we’ve seen guys doing breadth things. I mean, in terms of have we had COVID-19 strike the whole world, uh, see a guys pivoting into doing great things in terms of, uh, deliver the solutions and, and, um, you know, and also health systems. I see there’s, they have got a couple of clinics that are in the startup sector for medical deliveries. Um, and, and, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s quite encouraging. And, and when I, I, I had the conversation with, with Ben got on in terms of, of, of Cambridge capital investing in some of these companies we’re not there yet, obviously because the company has got an EBITDA that is looking at, but, you know, to get your time where, you know, we ended up getting to work with these companies to help them grow, because the biggest challenge in as much as we’ve got all these startup companies that are coming up here has been capital.

Gugulethu Hughes (47:11):

Uh, so [inaudible], I feel like the government is, is isn’t doing much to assist the startup companies. So they end up being at the mercy of the banks and so forth. Um, and I think it will be a good thing, you know, to, to have them get investments or not only investments, but, you know, partnerships in supply chain. So of companies was back to cooperation that I always talk about. Now, I’ve got a couple of, of, of people that I’ve met also in FITA, you know, that are doing quite bred things. And I always try to link them up with people in the international scene that I’m in touch with. Then always try to explore ways of collaboration, not necessarily capital, but it could be every news for them to have their products or their saying this, you know,

Scott Luton (48:00):

We had Kabir, Shakaya, founder, and CEO of Zippy logistics on the earlier livestream. Not sure if he ever rubbed elbows with Kabir, but what a remarkable story, you know, they’re, they’re building their logistics firm. I want to say they’re headquartered in, uh, Legos. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you ever, uh, have you ever connected with Kabir?

Gugulethu Hughes (48:22):

Yeah, I am. I have, like when you mentioned very interesting. Yeah. Um, small world. Yeah. Small world.

Scott Luton (48:34):

Well, you don’t have to, uh, let any skeletons out of your closet. I don’t want to give you the, uh, get you to share the secret sauce or anything, but he, he, he, that was just wonderful. He joined us for our safe picks, fueled livestream series, where we focus on own supply chain across the African continent. And, um, he perfect illustration. I mean, Zippy, I think is off to a, a boom, boom start, and gosh, as much you and you and him, both the passion, actually, I’m going to throw in Rica in there, the passion that emanates out of the, out of these leaders, like the three of you. I mean, that, that is stuff that, that moves mountains across the industry. And, uh, so anyway, if to any of our listeners, if you want to kind of a, a great, uh, case study of, of firms on the move based in, in Africa, this one happens to be in Lagos’.

Scott Luton (49:23):

You have to check out Zippy logistics. All right. So Enrique, when you, when you hear how Hughes kind of lays out the environment, especially the startup environment, I know that you’ve got team members there. What anything else would you add from what you’ve seen or your team has seen? I mean, there’s such an entrepreneurial spirit across much of the market there. I think it’s just, um, I would just summarize everything into one word and it’s just exciting. Right? It’s, it’s, it’s going to be very exciting. There’s a lot of opportunities and, uh, it’s funny that to such a small world, right. And it just getting smaller and smaller and technology is helping do that. And then also used, uh, just podcasts like this one, right. We’re kind of connecting the dots among all these different professionals around the world. And it’s just, uh, for me, it’s just exciting. Amen. I’m with you. Well, Hughes again, I know we’re just scratching the surface here. It’s, it’s tough to get too much accomplished in an hour, but I really appreciate your story. I love hearing your, your point of view on things are going on in an industry, the good and the bad stuff. And I know in talking with you, and as I’ve gotten a little better, you’re absolutely committed to helping change things and we need a lot more leaders and folks.

Gugulethu Hughes (50:37):

Yeah. I mean, um, definitely, but, uh, I just want to go back to what you mentioned about Kobe from, from Zippy logistics. I think previously when we had a conversation, I mentioned to you that I’ve, I communicate a lot. I have had a number of interactions with Jenny and she had the, the Sepik supply chain conference. Uh, some time, uh, could be edited this year or late last year that she gave me a free pass for. So I tried to that, that was, it was in that conference. Remember it was held digitally, but it felt very humane. So that’s how I got to know, uh, because [inaudible] session also where he was presenting on his company. And I mean, I find it interesting and I had a pimp was the, you know, joined to, to, to, to, to see the companies that are doing great things in Africa that, you know, I can then reach out to, uh, you know, for, for try to explore opportunities of countries invest in those companies. And I tried it. That’s how I connected with Cabera then, you know, we started chatting and then next thing went to email and ended up communicating. So, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s one of the companies that we’ve actually looked at with Cambridge and yeah, it’s stayed on the horizon there.

Scott Luton (51:54):

Awesome, man. It is a small world. So folks Hughes, I expect you to get a few inbound inquiries of how folks can compare notes with you and get you to share your expertise with them and you name it. So let’s make sure folks know how to connect with you. What’s the easiest way to, uh, connect with Google led to huge,

Gugulethu Hughes (52:13):

Well, the easiest way is via email. So my email is collaborate and dash 24. [inaudible] a, um, yeah, that’s the best way to connect with me, give what my Twitter, my Twitter. And you said, uh, the real process, Evan and Joe, you can share that also I’m very active on Twitter. So Twitter and email is the best platforms to connect with me.

Scott Luton (52:36):

Agreed. And of course we’ll make it really easy. We’ll have that information in the show notes. So you’re one click away from connecting Hughes here. Well, such a delight. I’m so glad we finally had a chance to, to wrangle your schedule and get you own. And have you share your, your POV with our community and re before we shift gears and talk about one of your many projects, uh, what was your favorite part about what Hughes’s shared? Obviously you already said one word exciting, but anything else you’d like to add from what we’ve heard from who’s here today?

Enrique Alvarez (53:05):

Well, Jessie’s story, right? Like, um, it’s a, it’s a very interesting and exciting story of someone that’s been passionate about changing the world. Then that’s been committed to changing society and helping others and just like, uh, it’s refreshing to meet people like you who use. And I thank you as well for being here and for by example, I think that we need a lot more people like yourself to kind of fight against this issues like child labor and among others. So, thanks. I agree.

Scott Luton (53:35):

Excellent. Okay. Well, big thanks. And here’s, don’t take off just yet. We’re going to wrap up, uh, talking with Enrique, uh, about supply chain now in a spaniel, but big, thanks to Google, to Hugh’s founder at Clint for joining us on this episode of supply chain now, uh, Enrique Alvarez. Okay. So logistics with purpose is one of your projects. Supply chain now in a spaniel is one of your projects. Tell us on the ladder what’s what’s coming up next. Folks can look forward to

Enrique Alvarez (54:07):

Ask me the question in Spanish. Uh, I can’t, I can’t answer it and if it’s not in Spanish, but that’s

Scott Luton (54:15):

Well, uh, if you had w I guess what’s, uh, interesting interview, you’ll be publishing it’s actually,

Enrique Alvarez (54:23):

It’s been great, right? We just recently launched this new project. Uh, I think we’re like five interviews. I mean, we have more, but we have just dropped five and last one with Ignacio Alcalde and I was looking back at the ones that we’ve actually had Ignacio call the in Chile amazing interview. Really interesting. I think Sheila is one of those countries that is incredible for many, many different reasons. And it’s worth kind of like spending the time, uh, to, to, to learn more about same thing with the Juan Carlos in Panama. And then before that we had Powell and Nunez in Mexico. So it’s, it’s, it’s fun. And it’s interesting. And you’re starting to slowly kind of connect the dots among all the different, interesting things that are happening in supply chain around Latin America. And I think, uh, it’s, I’m excited about it. It’s always fun to interview, um, caring individuals and smart individuals that are shaping their supply chains in their countries. And as Hughes was pointing out, everything’s going to eventually be connected. And so I I’m looking forward to listening to those connections. Um, so pay [inaudible] our companion [inaudible] supply chain now in Espanol [inaudible] Como Ignacio [inaudible] Nunez or courseware Velasquez. [inaudible] Scott. Yes, sir. Thank you back to you.

Scott Luton (55:45):

Well, wonderful series, love logistics with purpose love supply chain. Now in a spaniel, really, as we mentioned, we’re loving our series. Of course, as Hughes mentioned, uh, Jenny Froom, uh, we’ve been fortunate to be friends with Jenny for quite some time. She’s an inspiration, love that the work that she’s been doing in South Africa and really across the African continent, supporting and spotlight and, uh, splotching and, and the folks that make it happen. So love that series. Uh, you can look for that once a month and, uh, again, big thanks to our featured guests. Big, thanks to my co-hosts here today to our listeners. Big, thanks for tuning in be sure to subscribe you. Won’t miss comp rate conversations, just like this one, uh, be sure to connect with Hughes. I’ll tell you he has a wonderful Twitter follow. Uh, I love the, uh, I love the passion and the views that he used throws out there, uh, across Twitter and beyond, but also y’all pick up the phone and connect with him because he is a quite a resource doing good things. So on behalf of our entire team here, we hope this finds you well, wherever you are, as we fight to get into that post pandemic environment, and we’ll get there on behalf of our entire team, Scott Luton signing off for now, also on behalf of Enrique Alvarez, but Hey, challenging, you do good. Give forward. Be the changes needed to be just like Mr. Hughes here and on that note, we’ll see you next time here at supply chain.

Intro/Outro (57:05):

Thanks for buddy. Thanks for being a part of our supply chain. Now, community check out all of our programming@supplychainnow.com and make sure you subscribe to supply chain. Now anywhere you listen to podcasts and follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. See you next time on supply chain. Now.