[00:00:00] Scott W. Luton: Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be, folks. Scott Luton with you here on Supply Chain now. Hey, we have got a special episode teed up here today as I captured a few interesting conversations from our visit to a private leadership conference held by Tony Sheroda. The Reverse Logistics Association a couple weeks ago in Dallas.

[00:00:20] Scott W. Luton: Now on this episode, we feature a conversation with Sean Cleland from B-Stock, who’s doing some really cool, innovative things in the reverse world. In fact, I’d argue that they were an early mover here in the modern reverse in return space. I also catch up with my good friend, Rich Bulger. Who has done some really big things in industry and continues to do so via his company.

[00:00:44] Scott W. Luton: All Things Circular Rich is gonna be offering up the counterintuitive perspective of why we need more returns. Interesting. Interesting. Hey, stay tuned as we learn more from Sean and Rich and here we go.

[00:01:13] Scott W. Luton: Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be.

[00:01:16] Scott W. Luton: Scott Luton back with you here on Supply Chain. Now welcome to today’s show, folks. I’m conducting interviews here at the Reverse Logistics Association. Leadership Summit 2025 here in Dallas, Fort Worth, the Los Colinas area, if I’ve got that right, my first time here. Well, hey folks here. It’s the center of the universe for all things reversed, at least this week.

[00:01:36] Scott W. Luton: And I’m here with my newest, best friend, Sean Cleland, vice President of Mobility and Asset Recovery. With B-Stock. Sean, how you doing? Very good. Thank you for having me. Great to see you. Same to you. B-Stock’s been on the move for years now. Yeah. Almost feels old, man. Growth and success, when it starts feeling old, it means you’re making progress.

[00:01:56] Scott W. Luton: That’s correct. All right, so let’s do this. We’re gonna get into some good stuff on reverse in tech and more, but I wanna start with one area where you spend some of your free time and that’s. In general building stuff, which I love. That’s right. But in particular, ’cause me and my son are both big video game nerds.

[00:02:15] Scott W. Luton: Mm-hmm. And you build video game systems amongst other things. Tell me more about that.

[00:02:19] Sean Cleland: Yeah. I don’t sit still well,

[00:02:21] Scott W. Luton: so in the free time, I will build arcade cabinets, for friends, uh, give ’em away for their, you know, basements and lakehouse. But of course, I’m selfish in building for myself as well.

[00:02:34] Scott W. Luton: Now and you and your daughter do it together. That’s

[00:02:36] Sean Cleland: right. My daughter, I need to teach her how to use tools and not let anything stand in her way.

[00:02:41] Sean Cleland: We do a lot of research with it, and I’m a bit of a bad father because she is 11 and we’re already playing Mortal Kombat together, so that, I’m sure that’s the best. But let’s start that.

[00:02:50] Scott W. Luton: I love it. okay. We can do a whole podcast series on that and we’re gonna bring you back, Sean, to do that. Do it. So for the folks that may have missed my earlier sit downs, I mean, going back probably four or five years with the innovative B-Stock team, what does B-Stock do in a nutshell?

[00:03:05] Sean Cleland: so B-Stock is a platform that retailers, brands, mobile phone carriers, processors, manufacturers, you name it, companies that have inventory that they need to sell. Business to business into the secondary market. They’re using our platform to decide how to sell it, where should it sell and what quantity.

[00:03:28] Sean Cleland: and then they use our transactional component to either auction it or move contracts or sell it as big bulk buy it now. Inventory out to buyers all over the world and they’ll use all that data to make really smart decisions, and help run other programs for those companies.

[00:03:46] Scott W. Luton: I love that. amongst many other things.

[00:03:48] Scott W. Luton: Helping the power more successful.

[00:03:50] Sean Cleland: That’s right. Ree economy. that’s right. get as much recovery, asset recovery value, whatever you want to call it. but then also inform programs so they can make better decisions with that inventory as well.

[00:04:01] Scott W. Luton: Love it. Okay. So we’re gonna come back to, uh, the reverse space, but you, mobile tech, mobile tech is on your plate every day, all day, all day.

[00:04:11] Scott W. Luton: And it’s fascinating to see this mobile tech space and the velocity it’s moving at and all the cool things we can do with this device that I’m pointing at right here at our table. Amongst that tidal wave of innovation, what’s one thing that really sticks out from this mobile tech evolutionary period we’re in?

[00:04:28] Sean Cleland: Yeah, so mobile is really kind of the market leader, whatever we do in the cell phone, and high-end consumer electronic space, everybody basically follows. the big change now is, we’re in this era of robotic processing. But now we’re using AI to inform decisions far more forward in the supply chain.

[00:04:50] Sean Cleland: so the data in resale across all kinds of channels is impacting trade-in values. Now you’re predicting secondary market values. You’re having better offers for insurance and warranty coverage. you’ve got better contracts that retailers are making on the merchant side. Renegotiating return to vendor rights because they know.

[00:05:10] Sean Cleland: AI is informing what something may be worth down the road. So very, very interesting change.

[00:05:16] Scott W. Luton: It is, and a lot of those things are also empowering the consumer, no doubt, to, find better deals and find extra deals coming and going, not just on what they’re acquiring, but what they’re looking to offload and, and sell.

[00:05:28] Scott W. Luton: Right. For sure. okay, so now let’s bring it back to. The reverse and returns of managed space because we are in center of the universe for all things reverse here, at least this week. If you had to pinpoint one or two topics. Amongst the reverse and returns management space that’s really intriguing to you right now?

[00:05:48] Scott W. Luton: What would that be?

[00:05:49] Sean Cleland: I like coming to an event like this. Because I wanna understand what’s happening outside of the categories that I play in every day. What are the large retailers doing differently this year than they did last year? what are brands thinking about? You know, everyone kind of runs to.

[00:06:08] Sean Cleland: I gotta sell everything direct to consumer. I’ve gotta be, you know, doing this, this, and this. But I think we’re getting a little bit past that and thinking more strategically about, gosh, we’re getting returns. What’s the best thing to do with that? I’ve been kind of fascinated with the evolution that Best Buy has been taking with their Best Buy outlet stores and positioning more and more returned and refurbished and free owned for consumers.

[00:06:33] Sean Cleland: Mm. So what other retailers are gonna follow? That’s what I like to hone in on.

[00:06:37] Scott W. Luton: Sean, I love what you heard there because that broader perspective is so important as we look to, conduct market intel best practice and innovative new practice exchange amongst the different sectors. let’s face it, reverse who isn’t impacted? Yeah. And some sectors are well down the path

[00:06:53] Scott W. Luton: One last thing that you respond to, reverse planning. Exciting time.

[00:06:57] Sean Cleland: Yeah. the amount of planning that goes into reverse. I think like merchants and those that are in the logistics and supply chain and things like that, they’re tighter than they’ve been before.

[00:07:08] Sean Cleland: Yes, because. I don’t necessarily think because they want to be, I think it’s a lot of times driven by the financial orgs in these big companies, right? the eyeballs are on every part of the business right now because consumer spending is tight. Anytime the market gets tight, the finance guys at these big companies start looking into every pocket of the business and every lever is being pulled.

[00:07:30] Sean Cleland: That’s right. Inevitably the flashlight goes on reverse, which is normally kind of in the shadows. So right now we’re seeing, I see, much more collaboration than a typical period because the flashlight is all on reverse. Love it.

[00:07:46] Scott W. Luton: a lot of folks can hear your response there and hear a lot of the, microscopic, okay, where can we find efficiencies?

[00:07:52] Scott W. Luton: But what I hear. Is when, innovation can really be cross-functional and across enterprise, man, we can have some really powerful eureka moments that not just leads, companies for in new chapters, but the industry. That’s right. and that’s really where I’m going to ask you in a second about the RRA in the leadership summit, because I really see their role in all of that, push the industry forward.

[00:08:13] Scott W. Luton: But one more thing I wanna circle back in on, is. You touched on this earlier, but data and AI transforming how companies are handling their reverse processes, especially resale. I wanna, I wanna spike the football again on that. Yeah, because you called out, I think Best Buy. They’re doing some really cool things.

[00:08:32] Scott W. Luton: is there a practical example that may come to your mind that we can challenge some of our listeners with?

[00:08:38] Sean Cleland: For sure. B-Stock historically was asked the question, Hey, what can you get me for blank? That was always the question to us like, what is this worth? What is the percentage I would get for this category?

[00:08:50] Sean Cleland: It was very tactical, very narrow questions that they would ask of us and. Because there’s more data and I think even the little AI tools that are just increasing people’s work productivity, they’re asking bigger questions now. And now the question coming to us isn’t, what do I get for blank? It’s What should I do with this stuff?

[00:09:13] Sean Cleland: What should I do with the inventory in this facility? It’s becoming a more strategic question, rather than the tactical. Gimme, gimme, gimme.

[00:09:21] Scott W. Luton: Yes. More proactive, less reactive. Totally. And if we can keep making gains there, it’s really cool to see how far the reverse and return space has come, but we’ve got so much more heavy lifting to do.

[00:09:34] Scott W. Luton: Yeah. And to your point, if we can do more proactive planning and finding, wins for all parties and we can keep diverting more and more from our landfills, man. Yeah. We got some even bigger days ahead. So let’s do this. We’re here at the RLA Leadership Summit, 2025.

[00:09:50] Scott W. Luton: Folks, you can hear the energy, the tunes, the preparation. We’re in the thick of everything.

[00:09:55] Sean Cleland: Yes.

[00:09:56] Scott W. Luton: But what is one topic that you’re looking forward to, either in the sessions or the sidebars, or you name it shot?

[00:10:02] Sean Cleland: I’m kind of really looking forward to hear how the folks attending the show, specifically retailers and, brands,

[00:10:09] Sean Cleland: I kind of view them moving more toward insourcing. Because there’s more tools out there than there were before. It’s less about I’m gonna dump all my stuff in a warehouse and let someone else figure it out. I’m seeing a trend of insourcing and then using software and intel to make decisions about what to do with that inventory.

[00:10:30] Sean Cleland: we’re seeing a blend of both physical and digital coming together to make something a little more productive for these folks Getting more budget, which is great.

[00:10:38] Scott W. Luton: It is great and finding more success and B-Stock probably is helping. Folks find more and more innovative options, is my guess.

[00:10:45] Scott W. Luton: Totally.

[00:10:45] Sean Cleland: Absolutely. Like, like I said, the question has changed from what can you get me for blank and how do I use data to run this? So we’re becoming much more of the platform that helps them drive that business rather than a storefront to sell inventory

[00:10:59] Scott W. Luton: outstanding. And as I mentioned on the front end, I think, uh, at my very first RLA.

[00:11:04] Scott W. Luton: Annual event. That’s not what this is. This is more of a kind, a private leadership event. But at my very first annual conference in Vegas, I did 57 interviews and I met several folks from B-Stock. they were doing great things then. Then five years later, six years later, whatever it’s been, you and the rest of the B-Stock team keep.

[00:11:23] Scott W. Luton: Pushing the needle of what can be done, and I admire that we need more of it. So Sean Cleland, vice President Mobility and Asset Recovery with B-Stock. How can folks track you down? Sean?

[00:11:32] Sean Cleland: You can find me on LinkedIn. I am very easy to find there. my email as being one of the old school B-Stock people is very simple.

[00:11:40] Sean Cleland: It’s just Sean at B- Stock. Doesn’t get simpler than that.

[00:11:44] Scott W. Luton: It’s just that easy. All right, Sean Cleland. With B-Stock. Pleasure to have you here.

[00:11:50] Scott W. Luton: we’ll be back in touch soon.

[00:11:53] Scott W. Luton: Hey folks, I’m continuing my interviews here at the Reverse Logistics Association. Leadership Summit 2025 Here in beautiful Dallas Fort Worth.

[00:12:02] Scott W. Luton: The metroplex is the center of the universe for all things reverse. At least this week, although we’re gonna talk about why I might not say that. We can use All Things Circular. All th So you’re already hearing from our esteemed guest on this conversation ’cause I’m here with Rich Bulger, founder and chief circularity officer with All Things Circular Rich.

[00:12:25] Scott W. Luton: How you doing?

[00:12:25] Rich Bulger: That was a fast plug. I am doing great. I can’t believe we get to have conversations like this again. Thanks for the invitation.

[00:12:31] Scott W. Luton: Oh, it’s great. I’m gonna get to your final warmup question in just a second, but we met, six years ago now.

[00:12:37] Scott W. Luton: ’cause I think it was 2019 in Vegas at the annual conference. well, you’re top three out of probably 36 interviews we conducted over like two days. By the time we wrapped up the last one, I couldn’t even say my last name. Right.

[00:12:50] Scott W. Luton: And my team gives me a hard time about that still to this day. But anyway, Rich, great to have you. You keep moving mountains and I can’t wait to dive into the cool things you’re doing now. Well, thank you

[00:12:59] Rich Bulger: very much. I feel like Forrest Gump

[00:13:00] Scott W. Luton: since then, I’ve worn

[00:13:01] Rich Bulger: lots of shoes, but now we’re talking All Things Circular.

[00:13:05] Scott W. Luton: We are. And we’re gonna get into exactly what we mean by that. I wanna start with this one thing we talked about in the pre-show, so to speak. I thought a knew Rich Bulger, but I don’t because you’re like a black belt or something in TaeKwonDo. Yes. Is that right?

[00:13:22] Rich Bulger: Yeah. I’ve been doing martial arts most of my life.

[00:13:24] Rich Bulger: free story, childhood divorce. I got bullied a lot in, uh, middle school, high school. Got dis tooth knocked out my third day of my third high school my freshman year. And after that I decided I didn’t want people to hit me anymore. Wow. So I started doing, uh, wrestling to get grappling. I started doing martial art, TaeKwonDo for striking.

[00:13:43] Rich Bulger: I had really bad eyesight. I couldn’t play baseball or football ’cause I couldn’t see the ball. But if you were close enough to hit me, I could see you. And I just wound up really excelling in the combat sports. Mm. the martial arts gave me a discipline. To go through and prepare for the military. I spent three years in the military.

[00:14:02] Rich Bulger: Rose to the ranks and I wound up entering in the military when I was a brown belt. Military happened. I went to work. before I knew it, I was 31 years old and I had kids and I wanted my kids to grow up through martial arts, and I was doing a keynote speech at my high school on Veterans Day. I ran into my old martial art instructor.

[00:14:20] Rich Bulger: Okay. At that I hadn’t seen him. So test you see if you’ve continued your training. He challenged me the same way good teachers do. And at that point I was finishing up my four year degree and we talked about that. He is like, Rich. I don’t know many people that are glad they didn’t finish college.

[00:14:33] Rich Bulger: I’m like, yeah, there’s an occasional Steve Jobs, but he is a Rich vintage martial arts now for about 20 years. I have never met one student, not one that has ever said they’re glad they stopped taking martial arts before they got their black belt. Wow. Oh my God. And I’m like, Ooh, that that hurts. I said, I’m not, I’m not as young, I’m not as flexible as I used to be.

[00:14:51] Rich Bulger: He goes, how long has it been? I’m like, 10 years. he’s like, yeah, that’s a long time. He goes out. Let me ask you another question. Where are you gonna be in the next 10 years if you don’t start doing something about it right now? I’m like, Ooh, that’s the second thing that you said that, that makes sense.

[00:15:04] Rich Bulger: So when I left, that speech flew back home. My wife picked me up and there was a flyer in her car for an American TaeKwonDo school that opened up right down the street. Yeah. And at that point I was doing a nine round boxing kickboxing for a cardio Wow. And, I wound up signing back up, finished my black belt.

[00:15:22] Rich Bulger: I wound up competing a lot. I competed a lot when I was younger. But um, I went to, uh, qualify for the World Championship for American TaeKwonDo. Okay. You have to fight all year long, do tournaments and get points. And I went and I did one world championship and I lost, I got scared when I was in the ring.

[00:15:40] Rich Bulger: I knew I felt it You know, you’re in there with, uh, the top 10 people in the US and four from all over the world. So it’s a pretty intimidating ring to begin with. And I’m, in the 30 or 40-year-old men first degree black belt.

[00:15:51] Rich Bulger: not the most challenging division, but I remembered that experience. Yeah. and I trained all next year and I went back and I won the following year. So I’ve been doing competitive martial arts in the majority of my life.

[00:16:03] Rich Bulger: I’ve shifted from. Wrestling to a little bit of jujitsu, and I learned that what is illegal in wrestling is what you do in jujitsu. I’m 47 years old now. I still kick over my head and I’m just trying to, trying to fight age, but. The best I can. I

[00:16:17] Scott W. Luton: love it, man. I didn’t know that. I knew lots about your journey, but that was a chapter I must have skipped over.

[00:16:24] Scott W. Luton: And next podcast interview we have, we’re gonna get a demonstration. kidding aside, that’s remarkable. And, and your wife for getting into that. I think a lot of folks, it probably resonates with a lot of folks out there. the whole bullying thing. It seems like that’s one thing that with all the transparency and communications and just where the state of school is, it seems like we would’ve made more progress here in 2025 on those challenges.

[00:16:50] Scott W. Luton: But I can tell you firsthand and secondhand and third hand, we got a lot more work to do.

[00:16:56] Rich Bulger: Kids are still kids. Yeah, kids still kids. You never understand why people lash out. There’s always more than what you can see behind the surface, and what I loved about that martial arts is. It taught me how to control myself.

[00:17:07] Rich Bulger: Right. So, and how I responded to different things. And in the end, that really is the only thing you can control.

[00:17:13] Scott W. Luton: That’s right. We gotta maximize what’s within our control, for sure. alright, so that’s a great segue. we’ve sat down with you during various times of your journey.

[00:17:23] Scott W. Luton: When we first met, you were doing really cool things at Cisco, one of the most admired companies in the world. fast forward a couple years, you were working at. On a book that we’re gonna talk about in a second, which has received tons and tons of acclaim, and now we’re sitting down and you and your team and All Things Circular have got, you’ve launched a brand new, I wouldn’t call it a new mission, but a reinvigorated mission.

[00:17:47] Scott W. Luton: So tell us, for the three people out there that that hadn’t gotten the good news just yet, what do you and the team do at All Things Circular?

[00:17:55] Rich Bulger: So what All Things Circular is designed to do is create a space for a conversation. Started with the book that I wrote. Going circular, the Evolution of Reverse Logistics into a Competitive Weapon.

[00:18:07] Rich Bulger: And that book was written because there is no real training for reverse logistics that exists in our industry. When I was a student at the American Public University, the only college on the planet that I found that had even a course on reverse, I was on the advisory board of the RLA and I wanted to see if there was a place that I could go and get training for my team.

[00:18:28] Rich Bulger: Selfishly, I wanted to go and see if there was people I could recruit, because if people even know what reverse logistics is, it’s a bonus. And I thought it was just a responsible thing for a board member to do is, vet the training that we endorsed through our board level meetings. Yeah. the book that they used was written in 1999.

[00:18:46] Rich Bulger: The curriculum was developed in 2013 from research done in the late nineties, early two thousands, and I’m taking this program in 20 22, 20 23, and in 1999, there’s a lot of things that have changed since then. Circular economy didn’t become a word until 2013 when Ellen MacArthur made it one. Part of what I’ve done in my career is I started Verizon’s first retail trading program.

[00:19:09] Rich Bulger: That’s right. With the desire to buy devices back, put money in a customer’s pocket, and sell it for more. And really the residual value, I wanted to be a form of currency that they could use. Yeah. To set us apart from the competition. And I grew that to a $1.6 billion revenue stream at Verizon. Wow.

[00:19:25] Scott W. Luton: $1.6 billion revenue stream.

[00:19:29] Rich Bulger: And everyone thought it was crazy to go through and buy devices from a cell phone company. I was told it was spelled SELL, not a by phone company, it worked. And, what I found running Verizon’s reverse logistics and then the monetization, and then going through and running Cisco’s Global Reverse Logistics.

[00:19:46] Rich Bulger: And then being the CEO of a company, I helped grow revenues from 27 million to 116. Matching used supply with used demand is, there is a lot more in the center of the Venn diagram between brands and distributors, between one product category and another. Right. We all had the same problem. There’s no education.

[00:20:01] Rich Bulger: So when I wrote the update to the book Going circular. this is a funny story too. I had a professor that started giving me CS on assignments.

[00:20:09] Rich Bulger: About seven classes in. I’m on the advisory board. Cisco is winning Gartner supply chain awards, built billion dollar programs, and this professor starts giving me Cs because in the book, going backwards.

[00:20:23] Rich Bulger: All returns are bad and you wanna drive them down. Right? In a circular economy, there’s circular sales programs, lease product as a service trade-in that you’re actually trying to compel returns up. Yeah. So what I’m talking about driving returns up. C, you’re not getting the concept. You gotta drive returns down.

[00:20:41] Rich Bulger: Returns are a cost. but returns now are revenue center as well. Yes. A few weeks in, I finally have a meeting with this professor and he’s like, Rich, you’re not learning you don’t care to embrace the material. I’m like, there’s some returns you wanna drive down, but now in the circular programs, you wanna drive some returns up.

[00:21:00] Rich Bulger: It’s what I do every day. Yep. Rich, you can’t talk about it unless it’s written in a book. I’m like, we should write a new book. Me trying to be helpful. Hey, let’s go through and write one.

[00:21:09] Scott W. Luton: So it was like a rhetorical conversation.

[00:21:11] Rich Bulger: Yeah. That led to a, yeah. A real book getting written. So when he told me that I couldn’t write a book because I wasn’t a professor, I’m like, well, now I’m gonna write a book.

[00:21:21] Rich Bulger: So I, I wrote a book, the Reverse Logistics Association stood behind it. Glenn Ritchie from Auburn was my academic sponsor. 350 pages, 35 page glossary of terms. It’s what I wish I was given when I moved from sales and marketing into reverse logistics. And that book was meant to start a conversation.

[00:21:42] Rich Bulger: Yeah. And the conversation evolved from the book into, I met Peter Evans, who’s got a PhD from MIT. he’s an expert in circular platforms. He responded to the book launch and said, Hey, I need to learn. Reverse. I’m like, well, cool. I wanna learn platforms. So after we had a virtual coffee, he told me that he was teaching a masterclass in Barcelona on circular platforms, and he wanted logistics to be a part of that.

[00:22:10] Rich Bulger: Right. So we joined forces and started our very first circular logistics and platform strategy masterclass. so the book had an evolution. that was an eight day course. We’ve got three hour courses. Um, we’ve got. One day, two day, three day. We just did a two hour leadership course for the first time here at this event, but the goal was to go through and provide education.

[00:22:31] Rich Bulger: Yep. The masterclasses turned into a podcast that one of my former colleagues, Victor rc, who helped run Cisco’s refresh organization.

[00:22:42] Scott W. Luton: Uh, I’ve done a couple shows with Vic and folks. Vic is short for Victoria. Victoria, yeah. Vic, Darcy. She likes challenging organizations that say one thing and do the other.

[00:22:53] Scott W. Luton: And I love that passion that Vic brings to the table. And these, these conversations, not only

[00:22:57] Rich Bulger: does she like challenging organizations, she loves challenging me.

[00:23:00] Scott W. Luton: Oh, I see. Even

[00:23:01] Rich Bulger: better. So we, we’ve got this dynamic where, uh, she’s from the uk so there’s a British. and a European flavor. Right? And that’s one of the common things I’ve heard in my global travels.

[00:23:11] Rich Bulger: Don’t make it all about the us right? And don’t make it all about mobile. you had a male perspective, a female perspective, a European perspective, a US perspective, and we’re not afraid to challenge each other. So it worked and it’s been fun.

[00:23:24] Scott W. Luton: And Damien, which brings a terrific entrepreneurial perspective to the equation, right?

[00:23:30] Rich Bulger: Damien is. A great human being and very innovative. Yes. He’s a former finance guy who decided to get into wholesale liquidation when I left my last company that was in mobility. Yep. And I had a non-compete clause. I had to learn different elements. I had a 12 month burn down and I was watching Damien on LinkedIn doing these great videos on wholesale in a different category, set retail returns.

[00:23:56] Rich Bulger: He’d buy anything from party supplies to. Pillows to you know, returned, laptop mice or, or whatever it was. And he’d find demand. He would find demand. And not only would he find demand, he would tell people how he was doing it, love it to make a difference. So I met him in Vegas. I actually flew to the a SD Market Week conference of a conference I had never been to, just to meet Damien.

[00:24:19] Rich Bulger: And Damien, was hungry for. Making a difference. Hungry for learning. So he taught us how to do podcasting. We taught him a different industry and he is a key part of our All Things Circular team who specializes in retail wholesale, and he’s just such a great, interesting. Good

[00:24:37] Scott W. Luton: human being. All right.

[00:24:38] Scott W. Luton: You got a bit of a Hall of Justice, the Justice League foreman here. So you got Dr. Peter Evans, Vic Darcy, and Damien Pollock. I, I’ve got his name right? That’s right.

[00:24:48] Rich Bulger:

[00:24:48] Scott W. Luton: Okay. And of course, Rich Bulger, the world class TaeKwonDo champion amongst other things. And by, by the way, folks, That Verizon program he spoke about, you have to tune into another podcast ’cause that deserves its own deep dive history.

[00:25:03] Scott W. Luton: ’cause there’s lots of takeaway for where we are here in 2025 too. let’s talk about the book really quick. going circular, the evolution of reverse logistics into a competitive weapon. You talked about how the book was a bit of a springboard for, creating the All Things Circular ecosystem.

[00:25:20] Scott W. Luton: Driving conversations through Podcasts Training Masterclass. We’ll touch on that in a second. probably some consulting and some guidance, some advisory education, a big thing. We’ll touch more on that. What type of feedback have you gotten on this book that essentially you were challenged to write?

[00:25:37] Rich Bulger: in the Reverse Logistics Association, a group of people who do this for a living.

[00:25:43] Rich Bulger: I was inspired by the first two authors, Dr. Dale Rogers and, uh, Dr. Ron Lemke because when, which are pretty

[00:25:49] Scott W. Luton: famous

[00:25:50] Rich Bulger: within these circles, they’re legends. So they, uh, they wrote the book and they gave it away. So I’m like, alright, well I like that. So I wrote the book, A Return Pro, helped pay for the editing of the book.

[00:26:03] Rich Bulger: Yeah. Which I appreciated. And then, we gave it to the RLA. So if you’re a reverse Logistics association number. You can download the e version of the book for free. We went through, we gave 900 copies of the book away to anyone who attended the RLA and the one that we did in Amsterdam.

[00:26:20] Rich Bulger: Everyone got hard copies of the book and it’s pretty intimidating going through, taking something, putting it on paper and giving it away to all your peers to go through and provide. Feedback on.

[00:26:32] Scott W. Luton: Yes. I can only imagine That’s might be more intimidating than get in the ring with a, you know, a world class athlete.

[00:26:40] Rich Bulger: Yeah. what I wanted to do is, again, spark that conversation, right? Because I had been in all these different companies that called the same processes, different acronyms, and um, since there’s no real education on this, the American Public University system is the only college on the planet that I have found.

[00:26:57] Rich Bulger: Any listeners, if you’ve ever taken a course, not on supply chain or logistics, but one specifically on reverse logistics, hit me up on LinkedIn. I haven’t found really any other courses that don’t treat reverse as a byproduct, but it’s the most complicated part of the supply chain. Mm. And there’s no education on it.

[00:27:19] Scott W. Luton: And it poses a tremendous opportunity. Absolutely. Alright, so folks, you heard that challenge from One Rich Bulger. If you’ve been a part of, any reverse logistics training, curriculum, college, tech school, you name it, you want to hear about it, I wanna hear about it, especially If it teaches this new way of thinking where it’s a tremendous opportunity to have more of the right returns and bake that into the overall business model.

[00:27:46] Scott W. Luton: Right? Absolutely. All right. really quick ’cause I wanna talk about this masterclass. you’ve gotten a lot of feedback around. The book, if you had to bowl a lot of feedback you’ve gotten, ’cause feedback is a blessing as I’ve had to really patiently embrace. like, like comments on a podcast Oh gosh.

[00:28:03] Scott W. Luton: Comments on a podcast, comments on how we conduct conversations. Comments on how we lead businesses. Hey, but you know what, I’m kind of kidding. but Amanda does remind me very accurately, regularly that feedback is a blessing. Absolutely. That’s how we get better. so if you had the bowl, if you had like a common theme or two of the feedback you’ve gotten on the book, what would that be?

[00:28:23] Rich Bulger: So we had a deadline to get the book done. Okay. I, I wrote it in a year and, it was the first time the publisher that I had, published the equivalent of a, of a textbook or a guidebook like this. One of the things that I loved is the two editors that I had yeah. Had no experience in reverse and they actually felt bad.

[00:28:41] Rich Bulger: we can’t add any value because we don’t know the subject. I’m like, no, you’re actually the perfect person. ’cause I might be jaded just by my time using lingo that wouldn’t resonate, but I want to give this book to someone who’s coming into this for the first time. So when we wrote it, there’s some things I wish I would’ve done different.

[00:28:58] Rich Bulger: there’s no appendix in the book, so I wanna. Do, an appendix. there’s, uh, some feedback that, you know, feedback on one of my chapters, uh, circular finance Yeah. Is a little bit more complicated than it should be. And I’ve learned a lot over the last 12 months I bet. Going through traveling the world and talking to people.

[00:29:17] Rich Bulger: So my desire wasn’t to make this book perfect. It was to start the conversation and then write a second one. Yep. This is a, a complex topic. I, I bought it and I didn’t think that I would need any more copies in the first one ’cause I didn’t think anyone would want to read it. But you need more copies.

[00:29:33] Rich Bulger: I, I’ve had to go through and order several rounds of, more copies. Outstanding. I didn’t do marketing on it ’cause I thought it was niche. But I think this next one we’re gonna go through and do right. To have a broader appeal. Okay. I call this my cookbook. This is, the ingredients.

[00:29:49] Rich Bulger: If you’re someone that has to do this for a living. Of how it’s done. Yeah. And how the supply chain goes. Scott Case from the National Retail Federation Yeah. Has asked me to write a leader’s book. And when he asked that one, that could go to CEOs of companies. ’cause this is a big blind spot where no one knows what reverse logisticians do or how to train ’em.

[00:30:10] Rich Bulger: It’s a necessary evil. He’s like, you need to write a leader’s book. And I thought of one of my best leaders, Jerry Fontain. Who would tell me, Rich, I don’t need the details. I, I trust you. I know you have this. Don’t give me the recipe. Just give me the menu. So the next one I write is gonna be instead of 350 pages, about 150 in airplane read.

[00:30:31] Rich Bulger: On what leaders need to know about their reverse logistics team or circular logistics team.

[00:30:36] Scott W. Luton: Okay. I’m looking forward to being, to pick that up in the world’s busiest airport. In Atlanta. I know. You work towards goals. Yeah. So what’s the goal of this second?

[00:30:45] Scott W. Luton: So the first one’s great. It’s sold well, it resonated. Yeah. Uh, but you’re looking at, taking everything you’ve learned ever since and all the feedback, and of course, where the industry continues to go and all bake all that into a second edition or a sequel. Yeah. What date can we expect that by? You think?

[00:31:01] Rich Bulger: I’m hoping by the end of 2026. Okay. the leadership course that we did today, this is different. we’ve taught now nine different masterclasses in five different countries. Okay. Today was the 10th masterclass that we taught. I’m gonna be in Belgium next week teaching another one. So it’s gonna be six different countries, 400 plus, people going through, but this one had a different spin.

[00:31:24] Rich Bulger: It was a two hour one. Yeah. And since we’re at the Reverse Logistics Leadership Summit, this was the leaders. Overview of reverse

[00:31:33] Scott W. Luton: logistics. so backing up just a second, ’cause you got a lot of variations of this masterclass, but at the core, what unites them all is circularity thinking and doing and strategy and business models, right?

[00:31:50] Scott W. Luton: as you were describing, you’ve got probably a full blown masterclass. Y’all delivered globally, and then you’ve got shorter targeted. Variations like you gave here this week at the reverse, the RLA leadership summit. Is that right? Correct. We’ve got 31 different modules, got 31

[00:32:06] Rich Bulger: different modules.

[00:32:07] Rich Bulger: Yeah. That make up the full blown masterclass that make up the full blown masterclass in every conference that we do has our own love language. Okay. In terms of what’s important, like the content we presented at Circularity is different than the concepts that we presented at Mold Disrupt.

[00:32:21] Scott W. Luton: Yes.

[00:32:22] Rich Bulger: Which are gonna be different than the concepts that we present at next e-commerce supply chain.

[00:32:27] Rich Bulger: In, Belgium next week. So for everyone, we talk to the conference organizers. We find out about who is coming and we make sure that we craft a message that will resonate. And every time we do that, our modules go plus one.

[00:32:41] Rich Bulger: It’s a constitution. And this leadership one that we did today.

[00:32:45] Rich Bulger: was primarily new modules that we hadn’t presented before, but our hope was the conversation that took place today would become the framework and the outline for the leader’s guide. Yes. So you’ve been challenged, right? Right. That we’ve been challenged to write. So this was our first foray to go through and pressure test the concepts.

[00:33:05] Scott W. Luton: would you say that, the room you had today and it was a full room, I, I saw people standing up in the back. Would you say that this is a crowd that is, much more savvy and informed and aware than a lot of the other audiences you speak to?

[00:33:20] Rich Bulger: Right, right. the Reverse Logistics Association is supposed to be where the industry professionals go.

[00:33:24] Rich Bulger: And this is the most prestigious event that exists within our industry because only the, higher level. Sponsors and participants are invited to come through. So this is the niche within a niche. Right? And this is the most experienced part of the group, one of the questions that I ask,

[00:33:41] Rich Bulger: I’ve asked in all of my, my sessions, how did you get into reverse logistics? Were you trained? Did you, with your formal course, uh, did you shadow with someone? Were you just thrown in the deep end? Yeah. Are you still trying to figure it out? Scott, I’ve asked that question to over 400 people.

[00:33:56] Rich Bulger: Yeah. And do you know how many of 400 I’ve ever got? That said they took a formal course. I bet. three. One one. And that person who said they took a formal horse was a instructor that I had at American Public University. I’m like, well, you’re teaching a course that doesn’t count. when you go through and you take an industry that this complex and all the people that are supposed to do it.

[00:34:20] Rich Bulger: Are thrown into the deep end to figure it out. Figure it out. It punctuates the need that we have to do education training. More books. Yes, more classes.

[00:34:30] Scott W. Luton: even the leader of the RLA was picked from doing something else at Phillips Tony themselves. Yeah, that’s right. And he was tasked with figuring out how to do reverse and returns management.

[00:34:40] Scott W. Luton: And that really, if that doesn’t really spike the football on your point. Does, and in fact, we’ve got two bright, uh, seniors from Texas Christian University helping us out here today capturing interviews. So a big shout out to Mark and Matt did great job. And they both knew, which is really ahead of the curve.

[00:34:58] Scott W. Luton: They wanna be in supply chain from day one. Mark is going to do some big things in procurement. Matt’s gonna do some big things in production planning that’s very unique. ’cause it took me, I was a junior in college maybe before I figured out what I wanted to do.

[00:35:10] Scott W. Luton: what was really cool as I introduced y’all, Rich, you with Mark and Matt is you’re like, that is impressive. Now I gotta go find students that know they wanna do reverse logistics or circularity on day one. And that’s exactly, that’s where your brain went to.

[00:35:25] Scott W. Luton: So it’s really interesting. So I wanna, I wanna kind of full, picture here, full circle, because education, when, when folks ask you in all these conversations globally, you’re having about this. Not only the critical industry of supply chain management, but this niche niches maybe is, I think as you put it, what do we have to talk more about and figure out more and have more dialogue and more action around in the reverse and return space?

[00:35:53] Scott W. Luton: I’m gonna

[00:35:53] Rich Bulger: use one word. Impact. So some stats. If you look at, The National Retail Federation size and scope of returns in the us A study they came up with $5.2 trillion is what retail made in 2024. The impact of unwanted returns was north of 890 billion. Those are people who bought something and said, I no longer want it.

[00:36:19] Rich Bulger: I want my money back. So 890 billion of a $5.2 trillion industry, all that stuff went back through reverse prior to COVID. That number was about 350 billion in change. So when COVID took place and people shifted from brick and mortar, where return rates are about 8.8% to online where they’re north of 17,

[00:36:41] Rich Bulger: The impact of unwanted returns almost tripled. all flowing through reverse. And then the other phenomenon that happened during COVID and shifts in buying preference from Gen Z and millennials where they’ll purchase on. Purpose over price buying used things. They’re aware of their carbon footprint and they’re actively taking steps and they’re great at technology that helps match used supply.

[00:37:04] Rich Bulger: With used demand, the size of the secondary market has grown to north of $800 billion. So you combine unwanted returns, which go through reverse logistics. 890 billion, right? With the growing market for secondary supply chain north of 800 billion and growing. Put those two together, 1.6 trillion of a $5.2 trillion industry, 30% flow through reverse logistics, and no one knows how to do it.

[00:37:33] Rich Bulger: You go to a business and you say, Hey, you’re a legal team. Where’d you go to college? There’s legal classes. You go talk to the finance team. you know, have you ever taken a course on finance? There’s tons of courses, right? Leadership courses, supply chain courses. I’ll look at my friends, from TCU that are in supply chain.

[00:37:49] Rich Bulger: Have you ever seen a course in reverse logistics? No. when we talk to our friends at Auburn, no. We’ve gotta understand the impact and address it through education. Yes.

[00:38:00] Scott W. Luton: I love that. there’s a similar analogy, in the last 10 years, I wish I, I wish I had the data, but I know more of the growth.

[00:38:09] Scott W. Luton: Percentage data. I think we have over 250 institutions, colleges, tech schools, you name it, that teach some supply chain program credential certification or degree. That number, I think was less than 50 12 years ago. That’s a great thing. We got a lot way, a lot of ways to go, but that’s a great thing.

[00:38:27] Scott W. Luton: what you’re saying is we need something very similar for the reverse space, for the circular space. that also focuses on the modern way, not just to your point, less than returns. But returns is a wonderful thing, wonderful opportunity, makes the customers happy. It can create revenue. It can bake more, sustainable circularity into business models.

[00:38:53] Scott W. Luton: I mean, it’s a tremendous opportunity, but we’ve gotta have the education. To your point out there. And that’s that’s a big part of the mission you own at All Things Circular. Right?

[00:39:02] Rich Bulger: Right. And one of the things I wanna try to introduce is stop talking about forward in reverse is, okay, separate, separate things.

[00:39:08] Rich Bulger: ’cause reverse logistics just makes people’s eyes glaze over. I’ve started using terms circular logistics ’cause if you really think about it, forward is moving to the point of use. Yes. Reverse is moving away from the point of use. And if you do reverse logistics right. When you bring things back through asset recovery, operations, value generation, preparing it for its next owner as it moves to its next owner, well, that’s four logistics all over again.

[00:39:36] Rich Bulger: Right? And you can measure the success of your circular programs by measuring how often a product goes from the hands of one owner to the second owner through Ford and reverse the handoff. In circular logistics, there’s circular sales programs, lease product as a service. Trade in that are designed to compel returns up.

[00:39:56] Rich Bulger: There’s linear sales programs where you buy something and you wanna return it. The revenue reversal, you wanna drive those down. Warranty claims you wanna drive down, but you need to understand how to go through build circular sales and marketing programs. How to do circular movement.

[00:40:10] Scott W. Luton:

[00:40:10] Rich Bulger: and what I found is circular logistics invokes an emotional response, particularly from.

[00:40:17] Rich Bulger: My friends that are just entering career or my millennial friends that care about the impact that they have to recruiting. It’s purpose.

[00:40:24] Scott W. Luton: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. I love it. it’s one of the magnets we need in this industry and in this space. and also, I wanna point out, you’ve done this.

[00:40:33] Scott W. Luton: you’re not. one of the means of folks out there that are consulting, advising, teaching, I’m not throwing stones at anybody, but we all know there’s lots of folks that teach it and haven’t done it. You’ve done it. and as I’ve mentioned that story with Verizon and, the chapter of yours at Cisco, now that you’re using those great experiences and, uh, accomplishments preaching, the circular logistics gospel, all right, so there’s so much more to the Rich Bulger story, but how can folks connect with you and All Things Circular?

[00:41:07] Rich Bulger: So you can check out our website, www.allthingscircular.com. That is brand new spanking website. It’s a brand new spanking website. We have transitioned what was the podcast to a thought leadership space. Yep. To go through and provide. Peter Evans writes amazing white papers. Vic is doing a ton of articles and blogs.

[00:41:26] Rich Bulger: We’ve got our glossary of returns there. It’s where you can find our podcast. But if you want to bridge the gap between. Theory or challenges in applications? We do advisory service. So there’s a way you can contact me from allthingscircular.com. My love language is LinkedIn, so if you find me Rich Bulger, on LinkedIn, messaging me there is probably the most effective way.

[00:41:48] Rich Bulger: There’s tons of instant messaging and. I’ve got too many email boxes and you know you can’t keep up with all the spam texts and calls that are coming through. So true. But LinkedIn

[00:41:58] Scott W. Luton: is my safe space. Alright, so check out and follow. Connect with Rich Bulger, founder and chief Circularity officer. With All Things Circular.

[00:42:08] Scott W. Luton: You can also track him down allthingscircular.com. I get that right? Yes sir. and make sure you check out not only the current book going circular, the evolution of reverse logistics into a competitive weapon, but stay tuned by end of year 2026. You heard it here First, folks. The sequel, the highly sought after sequel.

[00:42:28] Scott W. Luton: So I’ll throw a challenge out there too. Oh, we got challenge here, the listeners.

[00:42:31] Rich Bulger: Okay. So if there’s things that you think need to be taught. The book for the people that are practicing it, let me know what they are. If you have thoughts and ideas, things you wish you could say to the CEO of your company about what you do if you’re in this space, but haven’t had the opportunity or the courage to ask.

[00:42:50] Rich Bulger: Let me know and I’ll put it in the leader book. Love it.

[00:42:52] Scott W. Luton: Alright folks, Rich Bulger wants to hear from you, Rich, of course, with All Things Circular, Rich, appreciate you being here. Always good to see you, Scott.

[00:43:00] Scott W. Luton: ​