“When we talk about digital transformation, I think the most essential piece is the hearts and minds. One way of winning over the hearts and minds of people is to show them ‘the moonshot.’ How far can we take this? How could this work?”

– Jacob Gorm Larsen, Director of Digital Procurement at Maersk Group

“When you have a vision, when you really understand what you want to do and bring your people with you, they key is communication. As a leader, you need to take action and make decisions to define the future, but always keep an eye on the holistic picture.”

– Dr. Marcell Vollmer, Partner & Director at BCG

When procurement professionals talk about transformation, they almost always mean digital transformation. And while digital transformation is important, it is only half of the story – at most. Every digital project not only affects everyone in the organization, but it also requires their input and support if it is to deliver the desired benefits.

In this episode of Dial P for Procurement, Jacob Gorm Larsen, Director of Digital Procurement at Maersk Group, and Dr. Marcell Vollmer, Partner & Director at BCG, look beyond the technology aspects of digital transformation to consider the leadership, change management, and human impact sides of the movement.

Through a conversation recorded as a livestream with the Supply Chain Now audience, Marcell and Jacob share the following with co-hosts Kelly Barner and Scott Luton:

· How leaders can leverage a forward-looking vision or ‘north star’ to help keep everyone aligned through times of change and inspire them to embrace it

· The need for empathy at every level in an organization, especially through uncertainty

· Their observations about the current mindset of C-suite leaders, including how far into the future those executives are currently looking and planning

Intro/Outro (00:03):

Welcome to supply chain. Now the voice of global supply chain supply chain now focuses on the best in the business for our worldwide audience, the people, the technologies, the best practices, and today’s critical issues. The challenges and opportunities stay tuned to hear from those making global business happen right here on supply chain now.

Scott Luton (00:32):

Hey, good afternoon, Scott Luton and Kelly Barner right here with you on the Dial P for procurement edition of supply chain. Now Kelly. Good morning. How are you doing? Good

Kelly Barner (00:44):

Morning. I’m doing great. We love the Dial P day. Dial P days. It’s like the day of the month in my house.

Scott Luton (00:50):

Agreed. We gotta start wearing red on Dial P days. You know, we gotta, we gotta get a little get in the mood a little better look festive. All right. So welcome back everybody. We’ve got a great conversation to that pier today. Two outstanding guests, big thought leaders, especially when it comes to digital transformation. So we’ll get to that in just a second, but you know, Kelly, when we talk about digital transformation, we usually focus on the digital and today we’re talking about the human ability to change and to drive change, right?

Kelly Barner (01:21):

We are. And I think it’s easy to overlook how difficult that is, especially given where procurement is in our journey. Right now, there are so many, you know, we talk about soft skills. There are so many human to human aspects of the work that we’re being asked to do that I kind of suspect. Maybe we’re investing a lot of money in technology and a lot of money in process and maybe not quite enough money in our people just to make sure everybody has what they need to handle it.

Scott Luton (01:47):

Well, we got to get it on. I’m looking forward to diving into those thoughts and a lot more right here on Dow P on supply chain. Now a couple of programming notes before we get started here today, want to encourage everybody, you know, we’re, we’re working hard to support these efforts to help our friends in India. That’s fighting the second wave and then some of COVID-19. So if you’re in a position to give, give small, give big all points in between, check out the nonprofit fiba.org, where every dollar is going to getting resources to India, or you can check out our friends at vector global logistics that are marshaling all those resources. You can shoot them a note to india@vectorgl.com. And then one final note, join us. Innovation is going to be some of the things we’ve talked about here today. We’ve got a great webinar coming up on June 8th, 12 noon, where we’re talking about real, not cliche, but real practical, successful innovation supply chain with our friends at Transplace. So join us for that. And the link to sign up is in the show notes. All right. So Kelly, wonderful conversation teed up here today. Anything else you want to add teas before I say hello to a few folks in the cheap seats?

Kelly Barner (02:54):

Yes, because I know both of today’s guests very well, and I know a lot of people that are us and who will watch later on demand. No, these two gentlemen, very well. I have worked with them individually and I hand picked them for this topic because they’re, without a doubt, two of the nicest guys you will ever meet in any procurement conversation anywhere. So I’m thrilled to be doing this topic today with the two of them.

Scott Luton (03:16):

Awesome. Awesome. We’re going to bring them in in just a minute, but first we’re going to say hello to a few folks that are tuned in Rhonda. Hey, you’re breaking records. Good afternoon. Good morning to you as it were maybe. And you’re tuned in early, man. I’d love to see that. So hope this finds you well out in Arizona. Hey David, I’m gonna let you down today cause I’m not wrapping a topic of conversation. You know, maybe I need to look at that again, but yeah, so special ed was with us yesterday. We had a great conversation. Kevin L. Jackson and Greg white, and uh, of course special ed is a legend on the music scene. And David basically was, was holding me to a promise to wrap in a future episode. So David not, not let you down, I’ll have to do it a few days down the road.

Scott Luton (04:02):

Maybe let’s see. Gynae is with us, uh, via LinkedIn. Great to see you here. Thanks so much for tuning in [inaudible] speaking of India, they’re in India. Great to have you back. Hope this finds you and your family. Well, Mervin is back with us from Dublin. Mervin. Hope. This finds you. Well, my friend, Peter Boulay all night and all day, he says good afternoon to us. All. This will be a great show. Hey, I agree Peter. And we may be a little bit partial Kelly, but this is, this is going to be a great conversation. Cavon is with us. Hey, come. I hope this finds you well tuned in via LinkedIn, Mark Preston, who is leading the champions club at the association for manufacturing excellence is with this field. LinkedIn mark. Great to see you here. Let’s see here. Elaine is back with us. Hello, supply chain.

Scott Luton (04:48):

Now she says tuned in from Sudan via Facebook. Hope this finds you well, Cavon you’re letting her letting our secret guests out of the bag. One of them at least, and he’s not wrong. [inaudible] with us. Hey son. I hope this finds you well. Great to see you here today. Usery via LinkedIn from Egypt. Great to see you here. So welcome everybody. And hopefully you brought your POV with you and your voice. We really look forward to hearing your feedback on the conversation we’re having with two distinguished guests. I think it’s Tom Kelly to introduce our guests. Are you ready? I am so ready. All right. So today we have got Dr. Marcell Vollmer partner at Boston consulting group guest, number one, and joining him is if that wasn’t good enough, we have Jacob Gorm Larsen director of digital procurement group at the Mayer group, but he also is author other practical guide to E auctions for procurement, which we’ll dive more into. So let’s walk them in Dr. Vollmer and Jacob. Good afternoon to you, both gentlemen.

Marcell Vollmer (05:53):

Good morning. Great being here today.

Scott Luton (05:57):

Outstanding. Uh, great to have you really enjoyed the pre-show conversation as always. We have been, uh, as we talked about kinda admiring y’all from a far, at least here at supply chain now and, uh, Kelly, uh, spoken volumes about your boat. So it’s great to have you right here on Dial P for procurement and supply chain now. So Kelly, uh, we’re going to start on a lighter note with our guests here today, right?

Kelly Barner (06:18):

All right. We’re going to start with a lightning round

Scott Luton (06:20):

Lightning round the lightning round. Okay. So I want to start with you Jacob. So love, you know, I love how, when the silver linings about this, these tough times we’re living through is this really brought the world together, right? It’s gotten a lot smaller and we like to celebrate where all of our, our listeners or our folks in the community and our guests are from. So tell us where you are right now. And tell us your favorite part about living and working there.

Jacob Gorm (06:45):

So I’m with you from Copenhagen, which is the capital of Denmark, where right now at our corporate, the pitfall, what I like about working and living in, uh, in Copenhagen is actually the size of the city, the commute you can bike to and from everything, I think that’s a true, a privilege that you don’t really need a car to get around and everything is within a fairly short distance. So I think that would be the one thing that I would pick on that.

Scott Luton (07:12):

And you can, you can eat what you want because you know, you’re going to bike everywhere. Right? Exactly. Okay. Alright. And same question to you, Marcell and Matt call you Marcell or Dr. Vollmer, which, which would you prefer? Okay. Hey, w we like to make sure folks are recognized for the hard competence they’ve had, but Marcel tell us where you are and what’s your favorite part about living and working there?

Marcell Vollmer (07:36):

So I’m gonna add now in our thankful to office, BCGs Frankfurt office here in Germany. So not far away from, for me right now. And what I really like about thankful is it’s very central located and you have excellent flight connections as soon as flights, uh, uh, back on. And I hope that we’ll be back on very,

Scott Luton (08:00):

We will. We both agree with you and we’ll give it a minute. Yeah, that’s good. Timing is good timing. So maybe we can play. Maybe we can take him out of the stream for a second and see if we can reset that really quick. But Hey, he makes a great point because the aviation industry has been struggling, right. And folks are dying to get back out there and travel and connect and get, and get there in person. So we’re all hoping we get firmly into that post pandemic environment soon. Okay. So Yaka let’s, let’s keep with you here. So we’re talking about procurement. Of course. That’s going to be the main theme here today. We’ve got Jonathan Townsley kinda, um, spiking the football happy Tuesday and happy procurement. I love that sentiment. Jonathan hope this finds you well, but Jacob, what’s it like working in the global shipping business, right? This second. It’s like, it’s like your front center stage right here lately, right?

Jacob Gorm (08:52):

Yeah, of course. It’s, it’s very, uh, interesting, exciting times, very busy as well. And also because we just most get more improve a historic transformation of the company, transforming ourselves from being a, you can say a pure shipping company to becoming a, an interim logistics provider, then that introduces a lot of changes, a lot of challenges, but also a lot of fantastic opportunities. So exciting time to be in, in shipping right now. Definitely.

Scott Luton (09:22):

Yeah, it really is. And to drive change via transformation during these challenging times, that is quite, you know, y’all are getting stuff done there at, myRisk looking forward to learning a little more about that. All right. So Marcell, uh, we had a it’s Murphy’s law and all the streaming goes, we’re going to have freezes and glitches here and there. You’ve been putting out a ton of content though, and I love what you’re doing. I follow you mainly on LinkedIn and Twitter. I love your you’re such a great person to follow on Twitter. Very eclectic mix of content. You’ve been talking a lot about space travel and emerging tech. So we’re going to be, we’re going to be kindred spirits here. I’m a big space nerd myself. I’ll admit that. But what is it about those areas that really captures your imagination?

Marcell Vollmer (10:05):

I definitely love, um, space and it’s absolutely exciting by the way. Today’s an interesting day. It on Musk is here is not working on a space project, but I think it’s similar size when I look at what he’s building close to Berlin right now as a, as a factory. And basically what I like on that is innovation. And there’s this really also, we see so many innovations coming from, from Spacey scratch resistant lenses, for example, in saline poms, um, uh, um, a lot of stuff, really what, what we benefit from, um, on a daily basis and business, really what shows feel is a tie for innovation and also helping to improve our lives. And this is what I, what I like most. And in that exciting also seeing, and to have link, uh, into space. I know how big it is, and probably it will really last until we go to mass. But, um, it’s absolutely exciting and fascinating for me as a kid, I started really loving looking at, um, movies, films about that. Um, some shows and I was always fascinated. And that’s the reason why all tour, um, put a lot out on emerging technologies, disruptive technologies.

Scott Luton (11:27):

There’s so much you shared there that I love, and it’s really becoming a global space race. It’s been interesting from China to the middle east, of course, here in the states globally, everyone is getting involved and, you know, as I’ve heard it and Kelly, I can’t remember who, who said it in the comments. I think it might’ve been Peter or someone else. You know, if we can fly helicopters on Mars, that’s going to bring some, some powerful innovation to visibility and communication here on our own planet. So I agree with you, Marcell. It is going to continue to investment in space exploration. Not only is it going to have to force us to apply supply chain to space, but it’s compact. It’s going to drive some powerful, real innovation here on earth. So Kelly, where are we going? It seems like these lightning round questions we could make at least a full hour there, but where are we going next?

Kelly Barner (12:13):

So next, we’re going to check the box on technology because given how well known you both are in this space, everyone will be mad at me. If I don’t ask you some questions about technology. So let me start with you. And we’re actually going to start more personally, what is an app, a device? What is some piece of technology that you really appreciate having in your personal life?

Jacob Gorm (12:34):

Yeah, so many of them, but to him, but if I’m just to pick one and it’s on a sort of a personal note, I would say it’s one that combines my passion for machine learning with, with red wine. So called Vivino, maybe you know of it. Uh, so you use it to scan the etiquette of a bottle of red wine and video will give you all kinds of information about the red wine. I absolutely I’m fascinated with the technology. It’s a fantastic app and I use it, uh, some would say too much, too much red wine or too much.

Kelly Barner (13:17):

How about you, Marcell? Is there a personal device or technology that you enjoy? I’m going to say red wine is hard to beat, but what comes to mind for you?

Marcell Vollmer (13:24):

I can’t beat the headline. So therefore I let, let me talk about the tech and definitely this is my number one device. What I’m using all the time for calls for news, for emails also linking it to machine learning what Jacob said, not only for wine, but also using Lily, for example, for dictation or looking something up in the internet. Whereas the way most of my emails, I’m ambling it now by using the voice input and get it automatically converted into text. Isn’t this amazing how convenient it makes your life, and you have your calendar, your camera, everything with you. So I’m definitely addicted to my smartphone as it helps me really to manage my day in the best, best way. Um, but I also can switch it off if I don’t want to want to use it. I don’t have any problems with that.

Kelly Barner (14:18):

Now I have to ask how good is it at hearing what you’ve said and actually putting the right thing down as someone who works a fair amount with transcripts, that some of these automated transcription services are humorous at times based on how they translate things. How good do you find it is a capturing what you’ve actually said,

Marcell Vollmer (14:36):

Oh, I love it. It’s really, it’s really amazing. And you can hear, I have a very strong German accent, sorry guys for that. I lived three years in the United States. I couldn’t get rid of that. Um, that’s the unfortunate thing. Fortunately, Zoe got used to it and I can do it in English as well as in German. And it works equally good or bad. Let’s say the, that way. It is not 100% perfect, but I think it is really delivering very good results. And therefore it’s, it’s definitely something also what makes my life easier.

Kelly Barner (15:08):

Yeah. If we could get that app to recommend a red wine, we would have the technology that could take over the wine.

Scott Luton (15:13):

Oh, it’s in the art of the possible indeed. Uh, Kelly, Hey Kelly. Before we switch gears and dive into the human side of transformation, I want to share just a couple of quick comments here from our community, Dave, and I like your comment here. Cheap seats. You mean the best seats in the house? I’m with you. I am absolutely with you, Shannon. Hey, welcome back from Canada via LinkedIn. Great to have you here. Big, thanks to clay and Amanda who are behind the scenes as our producers making live streams happen, stay hot. No, you did not miss me rapping. I said one, one line out of a wrap yesterday with our special guests and clay accused me of having some flow, which I think is a good thing as Leah. Hey, great to have you here with us from West Virginia for now. Great to see you here.

Scott Luton (15:55):

I think I mentioned Jonathan earlier. Brenton is with us. Uh, great to have you Brent and via LinkedIn. Welcome. And let’s see here. There’s one other comment I wanted to recognize. I think Eduardo, I think you’re with us here yesterday. Great to have you back. And uh, finally Shelton, Shelton. Great to have you with us here today. Um, by the way, Jonathan says that’s a great app, goes well with the wine spectator vintage chart that comes in handy as well. How about that? Integration integration. Love that. All right. So Kelly, where are we going next?

Kelly Barner (16:27):

So next we’re going to start to talk about the human side of all the transformation work that we have been doing. And Marcell, I’d like to start with you because you have a lot of broad industry level conversations. Where would you say people’s mindsets are right now, either with regard to the change that we’ve all just been through over the last 14, 15 months or based on maybe just where they are in this precise moment where’s everyone’s mind?

Marcell Vollmer (16:56):

Well, I think currently it is really interesting seeing that, uh, supply chain management and risk management is definitely top priority in the business. As I was saying, what I like very much is besides all the negative impact, what COVID-19 has. And, um, I, I wish I could say is a pandemic is over and now we are looking at, comes a past our look back into the past and can look forward into the future. I think there are good signals out there by seeing the vaccination is kicking in on the other side, we see India who else mentioned, um, horrible what’s happening say every day. So it’s a good thing. You said people are now more and more focusing on the future. And we see it here at BCG is that basically we are, we are no longer just looking into mitigation strategies, resilience for your supply chain, things like that.

Marcell Vollmer (17:47):

We also looking now in topics like sustainability, I was very amazed about alarming. Um, how much is invested hype now in scope speed definition? So basically how can you connect is a good, what you get from your suppliers to your CO2 footprint, to CSR, um, and really have this also part of your supply chain. So it’s a good thing is that people definitely looking into the future. And another element is the new remote working models is definitely also something everyone is interested in. And I think we have a kind of zoom fatigue sometimes too, to use system. But on the other side, I think in the future, we will benefit combining in a very smart way, working from home on the one side, but also going to the office. I have to say, I really enjoy being back at the office. Um, it is so good also meeting some other people network working and we are human beings. We have emotions. We want to connect to people. We want to socialize. I wish I could do this much more. Pretty sure as that. Lots of you feels the same and that’s definitely is a good thing that people are very actively looking into the future right now, um, which gives a lot of energy and to hive. Isn’t

Kelly Barner (19:08):

It interesting that in this moment, when we’ve all been separated for so long, one of the biggest I’ll say initiatives to come out of this time is sort of the diversity, sustainability and inclusion movement. It’s almost like in some ways we’re all channeling that desire for human connection and a desire to do more and do better for those who are around us and people that we will never meet that are on the other side of the world, but it’s sort of like losing it locally has given us more of a drive to make a difference globally.

Marcell Vollmer (19:37):

I couldn’t agree more. Absolutely.

Kelly Barner (19:40):

Now yoga, you shared as we were coming into this conversation that your group at Maersk has just been through an incredible digital transformation. Um, when you look back at what was required to successfully get through that project, what would you say was the critical success factor or the secret sauce to winning over people’s hearts and minds? So that, that change was made possible.

Jacob Gorm (20:04):

I think w when we talk digital transformation overall, and when we talk within procurement or at a, at a company level, I think the most essential piece is exactly the hearts and mind. And the way you win that over is by not considering these as tech projects, these are business transformation. So what you need to focus on when you, where you, where you need to put a lot of effort in is exactly on winning over the hearts and minds of people. And one way of doing that is to show them sort of the moonshot or the moon landing is as Marcell was talking about before. So show them, how far can we take this? How could this work? And that can be done through smaller scale pilots where you sort of give them a quick glimpse at how can this look in the future when things are fully digitized, I’m not a believer of, you know, a big one big system implementation, and then you work on that for three years and then you’ll turn on the light and everything is digital it because I don’t believe that will take you to sort of the value realization.

Jacob Gorm (21:08):

So I think it’s an, uh, it’s, it’s a journey that you’re on and it’s about showing people the wings so that they are with you on that journey. It’s not something that a project team is driving on the side. It’s something that you have to do together with the entire organization. And I think that applies to procurement and it applies in general overall. So I actually don’t think that that would differ.

Kelly Barner (21:30):

And I think the challenge is, you know, you talk about moonshot here, but you’ve also spoken previously about sort of having a north star for yourself and for your team. What, what is that thing that’s ultimately guiding your efforts? I think it’s exceptionally hard. I mean, if we’re realistic, we all know that vision and mission and objectives are important because you have to have goals to work towards, but actually being able to decide what that north star should be and define it well enough that it can drive people’s actions. I think that’s incredibly hard because it’s both creative and it requires you to fully understand the business. What advice do you have about people looking for their own notes?

Jacob Gorm (22:07):

And it’s also difficult because in, I think in most cases it will be sort of dynamic ambition, right? So the way I interpreted our north star two years ago is different than how I look at it now, but it’s also something that will, uh, that will move the move. The goalpost, as you learn more as a, I think it was Henry Ford, who said, if he asked his customers what they were looking for, they would say a faster horse, right? And that’s exactly the challenge. And I think the best advice to give to people is don’t look for a faster horse, keep an open mind, be aware of the bias and the limitations that you yourself are exposed to. And that goes for myself as well when I’m not very good at using Siri. But when I look at my two daughters at 10 and 12 and how fluent they are in engaging with all of these voice recognition technologies, absolutely amazing. So the best advice I can give is don’t look for a faster horse.

Scott Luton (23:12):

So, you know, Henry Ford also, I think, I don’t think this is a, uh, I think it’s a real story he asked, uh, our customers can have their model T in any color they want as long as they want black. So that’s what I, I want to share a couple of comments, Kelly, that, that the conversation has triggered all red. He, uh, David says going back to your DEI comments earlier, Kelly absolutely spot on Kelly with everyone connecting virtually geographical locations no longer matter as we interact. And it’s brought so much more light to groups of people that were an afterthought previously point there, David, and then we’ll here a little more recently, Phil and Phil hope this finds you well, uh, via art of procurement. He says, I love the mindset change that Jacob mentioned CSR projects that can drive transformation rather than checking the box. We hate the check, the box, right? Pencil whip things. And he goes on to say, and for many businesses, ever every individual is a potential current or future customer excellent point. And then say high one final one, great points on aligning vision to actions. Okay. Good stuff there. All right, Kelly, where are we going next?

Kelly Barner (24:20):

We’re going to spend another minute on vision. And actually it’s funny. I’m glad Phil’s with us because this was a, a key theme at our procurement mastermind live that we ran back last fall and Marcell at the time, you and I had talked about the importance of vision. And one of the comments that you made that has stuck with me is that even though things were exceptionally difficult, right? We were talking in October, things were still very scary. Things were not really reopening. We were all worried about the rebound and the fall. And you made the point, even though right now, it’s hard. If you don’t have a longer-term vision, you don’t need a shorter term plan. There has to be something further down the road, both to give you something optimistic to work towards, but also to help you maintain optimism and dealing with the moment. So I guess part of what I’m curious about is if your thinking on that has evolved or crystallized at all, and generally speaking, when you have these conversations with executives about their forward-looking about their future plans, what sort of relationship with time do they have? Are people thinking three years? Are they thinking five years or people still struggling to get beyond the next six months in terms of decisions?

Marcell Vollmer (25:36):

That’s a great question about vision. And I think we all know about history is a man on the moon. We started with space and to disruptive technology and what we have seen what really ignited once the president of the United States, uh, JFK was one saying about this. And I think, um, in the past, um, it was definitely something more about as a future five, 10 years strategies. What I have seen over the course of my career, when I look now and, and have conversations with senior executives who have CEO or C-level executives, um, from different functions, including procurement is they’re looking more for, Hey, let’s look into the next six, 12, 18 months, something like that. It is not really looking far out and coming up with the next big scene that everyone agrees how important it is to have a vision, and also to bring people behind this vision, what you, what you have.

Marcell Vollmer (26:38):

We need to achieve all our next step, because it is important a company to look forward. If you now look out there and depending on which news channel you follow, you might, um, get desperate about. Wow, oh, um, India has says, um, big problems, high tide now, um, in your most restaurants are closed, uh, hotels, closed tablets, where he limited things like that. But I think everyone likes also to see the positive sings. Um, is there something very bad what’s happening now right now with, COVID-19 no doubt about it, but basically there’s also light at the end of the tunnel. We are fortunate that there’s a vaccine ancient. So development of a vaccination is the fastest ever in history. So think about that. Who would envision census as possible to get, and this is helping also to hopefully overcome very soon. There’s a negative impact of COVID-19 when we get vaccinated.

Marcell Vollmer (27:39):

And, um, you need to have a vision and define your vision. What’s next sec. So how can I plan for the future? And I think procurement supply chain management is a great example, um, who would have ever envisioned since this will be number one or two priority, or probably C-level agenda. We have seen this, what started beginning of last year moves that, but now it’s time also to look into the future and think about, Hey, how is our supply chain evolving? What can we do better? How have we learned also from the digital transformation, from the leapfrog and using technologies like video conferencing systems, cloud solutions. And I think this is really what people like, and also connecting that by coming up with goals for the future, connected with the vision. And of course, everyone wants to go as a business. Some also have a different perspective on what they want to do different. And this is really, really, um, amazing seeing, um, how this has evolved over the last, uh, last, let’s say 15, 18 months.

Kelly Barner (28:46):

Absolutely. And I mean, you had mentioned Elan mosque. Uh, first of all, if he happens to walk by you, please just go get up and grab him. I would love to have Elon Musk crashed out pay. That would be fantastic. Um, but I think to go back to his point made ironically on Saturday night live, you know, he’s reinventing electric cars and planning to send people to Mars. Did we really think he was going to approach things like a typical guy? And I think on the one hand, that’s funny and it’s a good joke, right? We all laugh at it, but there’s a very serious point in there that whether we’re looking six months out or 12 months out, we have to be willing to explore some things that are maybe a little bit more radical, maybe some different ideas than we thought about in the past. Because if we’re just trying to roll back out the same old things, nothing could be further from transformation, right? Yes. Excellent

Scott Luton (29:38):

Points there. Excellent. Blab. I think we’ve got it. We’ve got a challenge. Every single assumption, uh, old and new right now, as we look for creative ways of solving old new problems. I want to share just a couple of comments here that y’all continued to instigate via the best seats as David says it. Gary was a big fan of what Kelly Marcel, we’re talking about things mainly related to vision reminds me of Jordan Peterson’s podcast vision, and a focus out the chatbot. Now, Gary, thanks for joining us here. Mervin says short term solutions are good. As long as they’re accompanied with a long-term roadmap. I like that. And as Leah says, vision is such a great topic to speak on a road has to have a starting point and a destination. It can have as many terms, intersections and stops in between. For me, vision is the same way as to know where I started, where I’m aiming to handle the progress of getting there. Excellent point as layup. Okay. A lot of good stuff, Kelly, where we, uh, let’s see what we’re moving to next

Kelly Barner (30:37):

Next, we’re moving straight to the heart. You know, we talk a lot about empathy and I think whether you’re leading a change project or whether you’re helping folks adjust to the idea that maybe they’re going to have to go back to the office regardless of how that feels to them in terms of their personal comfort level, it’s incredibly important. So yeah. Let me come to you. How do you try to infuse your leadership efforts, your management responsibilities with a sense of empathy, to make sure that your team is getting what they need as individuals to complete the work

Jacob Gorm (31:13):

That they’re faced with, uh, in, in the current situation, you mean? Yes. Yeah, but I, I think empathy is exactly the right word to use in that context and understanding that everybody’s situation is unique and how I talked about in the introduction, right. That, uh, I like to go into the office I bike in. So that’s relatively safe. If you can use that word, others may be dependent on public transportation and that’s a less safe option these days. And then you’ve got, you have to be, keep an open mind and put yourself in their shoes and really understand they’re also, it could be a unique family situations and then ensure you provide the flexibility that is needed in my experience, whatever flexibility you give to your team, you get it a tenfold back in terms of engagement and extra commitment and also flexibility going the other way and whenever that is needs.

Jacob Gorm (32:13):

So I think those, those are, it’s absolutely key to be flexible and accommodating in a situation like this when this whole pandemic started and, or at least before there was this sort of unset notion that working from home is like that’s a half day off. Right? And hopefully that is one thing that we haven’t killed for goods with this pandemic, because I think everybody will realize working from home, you are at least as efficient. Of course, there can be situations with kids running around the house all day, but in general, that you’re not disturbed that you have that calm and quietness. You don’t have a two hour commute going into the office with, I know a lot of my colleagues will have, it makes, I believe it makes you more efficient. And I don’t think anybody can document a reduction in efficiency due to the pandemic and the flexibility. So it’s a good investment to, to give people that freedom also in the future.

Kelly Barner (33:13):

Do you think it’s sustainable? I mean, the only thing that I worry about with all the working from home is that while the four of us might have always been having this conversation, virtually teams of people that work together every day, there is some level of loss, not necessarily in a direct work situation, but you’re not having the casual encounters at the coffee pot or waiting for the elevator or whatever. You’re going to lunch, whatever work setting, you know, do you think that human connection is sustainable with people working from home

Jacob Gorm (33:43):

As with, I think most other things it’s a balancing act, right? So before we were a hundred percent in the office, now we’ve been a hundred percent out of the office for a period of time. And I think people, different companies, organizations will find a balance. So I could easily imagine going forward that people would come into the office one, two, maybe three days a week, but definitely also work from home a couple of days. And that’s probably the optimal, because I also agree that’s informal connection team gathering events also sometimes travel to meet clients, colleagues, et cetera. I think it’s needed if you want to keep those relationships. So it’s a balance, I think. Yeah.

Kelly Barner (34:30):

Marcel, let me ask you a sort of a slightly different question about empathy, because I know you’re big on the topic of innovation. Do you think there’s a connection between an ability to be empathetic and ability to innovate? Do you see a connection there either in terms of the people that possess either or both, or in terms of what is required on the types of projects that are truly innovative?

Marcell Vollmer (34:56):

I think what’s, what’s really important is that, um, when people innovate, um, it starts very often with brainstorming and ideation and then also coming up with some crazy ideas. The thing is that, and how do you do that? Basically as human beings, we like really interacting with each other in, see, not only now as a face and a little bit further down, it is seeing lots of the body language and, and there’s, there’s lots of things, what we are missing by, uh, we can use a little bits of hands, what I’m doing right now. Okay, fine. But basically has he S he has much more. And also, uh, you mentioned the, um, waiting, waiting for the elevator meeting meeting. Um, it’s a coffee corner, things like that. This is also a little bit by giving you new ideas, giving you some inspiration. How do you get stressed looking all the time in your camera and being very disconnected from, from basically all of the people except of your family.

Marcell Vollmer (36:04):

And probably some friends, as soon as it is allowed in Germany, by the way, it’s not allowed, it starts now coming back. So this is really where I can understand also why people saying that as they have problems of sad, permanently working from home, and I can agree on Zack, I think, and our crop, you mentioned it, the, and this is definitely something what I could envision as well. We also will see that with a stronger focus on CO2 footprint, for examples, that flying account [inaudible] for a one or two hour meeting with a client might no longer be also what we will do as we all see it is possible to do it on video conference. Uh, we do conferencing systems, uh, fairly about when they things, the mix is really what you need to balance. I see it also here, when I talk with my colleagues on, on the strategy consulting side meeting from time to time, um, is so beneficial and really, um, developing a team spirit, um, working as a team, um, even if you are not allowed to go out in a restaurant anymore to also spend some time with your, with your colleagues, but this is definitely something what a lot of people are missing and therefore has things of benefits is probably something which will last for longer.

Marcell Vollmer (37:27):

But I think it will definitely also be on the other side that a lot of people want to go back to the office and also benefit from diving innovations, um, discussing things together as I had hoped for yachts or yeah, socializing a little bit more or less things. That’s definitely something, um, what to work. Uh, lots of people including myself are missing high blood now.

Scott Luton (37:51):

All right. Um, gosh, so much goodness, in the last seven minutes there, you know, I, I often think when I think of empathy, I think of a great analogy that I learned 12 years ago. We had an internal consultant come in and she spoke of the notion of, um, kind of a rapport bank, right? And most people are always making withdrawals and they don’t stop to think about, they got to make some deposits. And I think in this virtual age where it’s email and social and, and, you know, you don’t stop, you know, you don’t have kill it to your point. Those natural moments of, you know, bonding and rapport building is so important to be very deliberate about that, which can help, uh, help really in droves, help, help drive change and, and successful change where everyone feels part of it. We’re going to talk a little more about, uh, the team here in a second, but I’ve got a great question here from Dave Morrow and Dave hope this finds you well tuned into a presentation.

Scott Luton (38:43):

Dave made out in Arizona. One of my last in-person events in February, was it 2020 out there with dim SCA the diverse manufacturing and supply chain association, which is a great group, Dave, and I’m going to pose this question really quick, hitter to Marcel and yuck up. Can you speak to the need for a common language for supply chain to avoid the tower of Babel when dealing with international supply chain partners and the need for digital actors requiring more exacting definitions? I would add to Dave’s question, you know, with, with global enterprise, we’ve gotta make sure everybody can, can communicate and feel like that they they’re in the Nope. And, and, and there’s not, you know, those gaps can create so many, uh, so much friction, but Marcell, we’ll start with you. How would you, uh, what was your initial response to Dave’s question

Marcell Vollmer (39:31):

Dave? That’s a good question. And, um, I hope more than it will be a supply chain control tower instead of the tower of, uh, which I would love to see because speaking different languages and you are perfectly aligned, I can, can fully agree on your observations that, um, a lot of people really, um, um, I’m not really clear and transparent about the language they’re using and what exactly is it now, what we are, what we are talking about. And on, on that end, I think technology might help us having machines, communicating to each other, having sensors, getting connected to our supply chain, providing comes from see real time information about race. My talk, when do I get my, my, um, my shipment? Um, I think this will will help. Definitely. And on the other side, also, technology is evolving that, um, is it different systems are speaking more to each other?

Marcell Vollmer (40:30):

So it’s not only the advanced technologies, what I was using, like IOT 5g, whatever you want to use. It is also that different systems from different solution providers. I’m now getting more and more connected, which also built on that and health. And on the other side, we are human beings. I think if we are not very clear or something is probably misunderstood, we need to ask, Hey, can you, can you please repeat? Or can you, is it really that what I got now from, from your question sinks like that this might also help. And a lot of people are just sitting and being silent. Silence does not necessarily mean agreement, nor does it mean understanding. And that’s definitely also something where, um, a more active conversation between people, um, might be helpful to a wide how I’ll follow, which is hopefully, uh, not habit,

Scott Luton (41:23):

Excellent point, you know, communication velocity is, is also increasing and speeding up and it really can, it can create bigger gaps if folks don’t say, Hey, time out, time out. We’re we’re on two different, uh, songs here, uh, hymnals. All right. Y’all cup you’re uh, uh, same question to you. Speak them out.

Jacob Gorm (41:40):

Yeah. So I can definitely, again, fantastic and good question. And I can echo a lot of my points here, but instead of doing that, I’ll just say from a, from a technology point of view, you also see a lot of things happening for you, especially talked about, you have API APIs, making it significantly easier to connect systems, but you actually also see networks coming out blockchain solutions that aims to create that transparency so that we all talk the same language into it on the supply chains. And just to mention one example, if, if you haven’t heard about that trait lens, which is a blockchain network that we are building together with IBM, I think is a fantastic example where we try to exactly avoid the town of Babylon and ensure that everybody speaks the same language into it across the supply chain. So fantastic point. Yeah.

Scott Luton (42:36):

Alarm and unity, certainly matter of all right. A couple of quick comments, and then I’m going to jump back. I’ve got a question around, I’m going to a hockey question for you and I am not a hockey expert, but we’re going to see what happens. Peter bullae talks about how we’re missing the, what do you think? Moments, which, which I agree, you know, when we all huddled in a room and ran a white board, or even around the lunch table, you can have those powerful, what do you think moments Kayvon says experiencing the atmosphere of the workplace matters, great point there. Uh, and Kim Humphrey, who was CEO of the association for manufacturing excellence, by the way, Kim, great to have you here. She says, getting to know people virtually is good. However, humans need connection to build trust. Excellent point. Yeah. I’m

Jacob Gorm (43:19):

Trying to get to that because I think it’s a really good point that Peter is bringing up that those, what do you feel? And there’s a lot of value in those. But when I talk about this thing about working undisturbed, it’s actually, there’s also a downside to that. And there’s a lot of research done on how long time does it take for someone to get back into the flow. If you’re deeply concentrated on doing something and somebody drops by and say, Hey, what do you think about this? It takes you somewhere between 15 and 30 minutes before you’re back into a, into the flow. So if you have eight of those, what do you think moments per day, it might be that you give some good input, but you are literally inefficient half the day. So that’s great. But I also missed that dialogue and that inform lectins, but there is actually research pointing it at a downside to it as well.

Scott Luton (44:10):

Yeah. Excellent point. And Angela, you’ve got a great question around correlation between long-term planning and employee retention. We’ll have to hold that one for next time, but excellent question. Okay. So let’s talk about the art of being a goalie, something I’ve never experienced. I’m not sure if you all have goalies, you know, training themselves to move instinctively to where not just where the puck is, but where it’s going. It’s like that when that famous Wayne Gretzky quote, so Yaakov, I’ll start with you. So how are you preparing your team to remain grounded and confident, which is really important, right. But flexible to your earlier point in today’s truly uncharted waters.

Jacob Gorm (44:48):

But first of all, I think that there’s no easy answer to that. And I’m also not a, not a big hockey hockey guy, but again, I think it’s extremely important to be humble to that assignment and also accept that you won’t get it all right. And I make mistakes. I think everybody makes mistakes, but, um, but again, being flexible, open-minded in your approach to things. And then again, except that you make mistakes, especially in times, like now where, you know, none of us have tried this before, so w we have to try out things and then see it works, how it works. And as part of that, you know, keep a very open dialogue with the team. What works for you? What, uh, what doesn’t work for you. We, you know, none of us are experts in also being a leader or a manager, uh, remote, uh, some people like clear guidance on what is the fact that others don’t. And the only way you can figure that out is by having a very open, transparent dialogue with them. So again, it’s, it’s really, it’s a difficult question. And I think you just have to keep an open mind. Yeah.

Scott Luton (46:02):

Well, well said, you know, it’s interesting, what’s old is new, again, certainly in this new information age environment we’re in, and some of those long standing, uh, values when it comes to things that make up winning cultures, which is some things you’re talking about Yacob and being transparent and, and being, um, uh, hum humility, humility is a beautiful thing. Organizations, you know, you can be aggressive and bold and, and, um, um, you know, ambitious, but man, a little bit of sense of humility, uh, especially when you, so you can really learn from your failings, uh, is a really important, okay, Marcel, I’m gonna switch gears with you. I want to put our, our finger on the pulse. You know, you both talked to plenty of global executives, but Marcel, when you’re, when you’re talking to global executives right now, what’s the temperature in the room? Are they, are they feel optimistic or are they just overburdened with some of the challenges of the day?

Marcell Vollmer (46:53):

The interesting thing is the temperature stays exactly the same because it’s always only one interval. So therefore even the discussing is not really heating up slowly for that. Although I think I really like that most people are positive. And, and, um, the key towards that is also, um, building on the previous conversation. It is key to communicate, communicate, communicate. You need to be, to, to speak to people to understand what is it, and also be clear on, on the messages and executive side. Now they are definitely concerned about the future, what will really happen? Um, um, cause he asked by as way as he has multiple events also bringing supply chain Hornsey agenda and, uh, Jacob as a shipping example of evergreen, I’m pretty sure that everyone knows what Suez canal is and how important it is. Um, so this is, um, especially when it gets blocked.

Marcell Vollmer (47:57):

Um, so is there multiple things? What can happen by the way? I got appointed as chief procurement officer at ACP back in 2011 and probably some of you might remember what happens at the beginning of the year. Fukushima was the first one to flood in Thailand or the second one, what happened. And we have seen supply chain disruptions. So basically we need to get used to answer up to you. We need to get used to unpredictable events in the future, whatever this is. And I think the key element is that when you have a vision, when you, when you really understand what you want to do and also pay your people behind, and this is the key also communication, um, what I want to build on, I think the next thing is really, you need to take actions and, and take decisions in defining the future.

Marcell Vollmer (48:50):

And, and this is definitely on the top of the agenda. Now, some people it’s a good thing is that, um, when you talk with executives, see economies, the global economy. Now when you look at the holistic picture, it’s going, it is really aggressively going look at China, United States as bouncing back high tide. Now you always catching up, uh, slowly but surely. And I think this overall gives a very optimistic environment and therefore I like daily being evolved involved in lots of discussion about a few drafts, um, uh, two, three years plan what they are doing height now investing goings a business bank. So that’s definitely a very fortunate thing. And I hope also that this future will become a reality, um, very soon and hopefully is a pandemic assault.

Scott Luton (49:43):

Oh, Murphy’s law strikes again, Hey, that happens here in the live stream environment and there’s last time shows the passion. I love that Marcell excellent point. And I really appreciate you kind of walking us back through some of those things that we may have easily forgotten based on what we’ve experienced last 18 months. So really appreciate that. All right. So Kelly, as much as I hate our time is winding down with Marcel and Jacob up here. I hate it.

Kelly Barner (50:13):

I know, I know this was, I always say to people how fast the hour is. Uh, but as much as I say it, it’s hard to really represent just how quickly it goes by. It’s easy to get so involved in these conversations.

Scott Luton (50:26):

That’s absolutely completely agree. So I want to share this comment here from azulejo a part of empathy is a common understanding. We have to invest time and understanding the various cultures and language of others. We plan to make exchanges with. I agree in, in taking it even a step further, I’m not sure who we were talking to this week, but oh, uh, it was Kevin and, and special ed and Greg yesterday really truly celebrating the differences, right? It’s your differences can, can create disagreements and, and, and not being able to walk in each other’s shoes. Right. Which, which hinders progress. But, but, but rather than let it just be obstacles, we gotta celebrate it. Right. That’s what makes that’s what makes Copenhagen and Frankfurt and new Orleans, you know, really special and unique places that along with the people. So, so Kelly, you know, we, we got a couple of minutes here before we make sure we get folks connected with Marcell and jacob. Any final, final question or so for our R D uh, esteem panel.

Kelly Barner (51:26):

Yes. So my, my last question for each of you, we’ve talked a lot about how you deal with your teams and what you’re doing to build them up and working through them to lead change in different organizations. Where do you find your own Jacob in your case, your north star, Marcell, And your case, the vision, when you’re faced with a decision or with a challenging set of circumstances, what is it from your experience, from your personality, from your way of working that you find gives you sort of that combination of empathy, but also good decision-making to come through the moment in the right place, Jacob what’s, what’s your personal north star for working through these challenging circumstances.

Jacob Gorm (52:10):

But first of all, I think it’s, it’s exactly in times like that, where you need north star or, or a clear vision, because that is what will get you through a times like this. And when you have all these uncertainties that are hitting you from right lift and center, it’s important to know, to know the direction and to know what you want to achieve and what you want to get out of it. And you can say I’ve, I’ve myself has said, I do that once in a while, set some professional and impersonal goals. I’m happy to take one of them off already, uh, early in the year, this year with becoming a published author, that’s been an ambition for, for a couple of years, but I think they’re important to have both on a personal career level, also sort of just the personal level, but also, and probably more important to have them as a team. What is it that we as a team, whether us as a sports team, a hockey team, a football team, or a team in a business, what is the joint goal that we have? What is the north that we want to achieve here? Because that is what will get you through the tough times, I would say.

Kelly Barner (53:18):

Yeah. What do you think Marcell? I mean, and obviously, as I said before, you both joined, I know you both, I’ve worked with you both, you clearly have demonstrated even over this hour, if there’s a lot of nuance, there’s a lot of depth, right. When you’re faced with very challenging situations, what is it that allows you to maintain that kind of calm and balance as you chart your path forward?

Marcell Vollmer (53:42):

I say my personal north star is definitely my wife and also very good to get grounded from time to time. Yeah. When you talk all the time, if senior executives, um, and, uh, talk about vision and, um, Aly very big, um, and impactful, uh, projects around the world. Um, I think it is really good sometimes to come at home and really have very grounded conversation and we are all human beings. And I think that’s definitely also something which, um, which is a really good way in changing the perspectives. This is what I learned, um, over the time of my career was that step back for a second, try to change the perspective as much as possible. I know how tough it is. So it’s not, not an easy thing to do because you are heavily involved. This is your project, probably it is your baby.

Marcell Vollmer (54:36):

Something, what, what you want to dive, and you might have a very passionate, uh, opinion on that. But step back, really think about it and also tied to think about how is it perceived on the other side, when I was so excited as chief for humid office, wow. We could implement, um, our solutions with in, um, screen months. Isn’t this amazing. And, and, and, uh, everyone should be in the same level of excited. Like, like I am, I learned the hard way and SEP also that is the excitement I have for the making it happen and get access to the, to the solution is not necessarily the same excitement, what I, uh, cost on the side of the category managers and to the bios. And there was a good reason for that. And honestly, also where you need to think a little bit about, oh, well, how was it perceived on the other side?

Marcell Vollmer (55:32):

Of course, it sounds great. If you, the, Hey now we are apple easy and Google fast on the procurement side, we really contribute to the value proposition of your company. I could continue with that past me. Um, but I don’t want, um, it is more busy. These, that sink always about the customers, like as a client to stakeholder perspective, step back, be flagged ends in, make your mind. And then as soon as the decision is taken, really execute and be really, really, um, passionate about the execution. That’s what I learned. And this is what my north star is, what guides me when I have to take tough decisions and engage with people.

Scott Luton (56:15):

Wow. All right. What an a, to a couple outstanding answers there, inspiring, uh, folks and comments. Um, all right. So we’ve the end of our hour. It is just, uh, flown past. I want to make sure folks can connect with you both, uh, uh, Jacob and start with you and make sure folks know how to know where they can get your books. So how can folks connect with you and get the book

Jacob Gorm (56:37):

You have? So LinkedIn is a good, a way to do it, and, um, I’m pretty active in there. So feel free to, uh, to reach out and connect. And my book is available. Uh, Amazon target Walmart, any, any online bookstore, you can get it. Yeah. So, and it hasn’t been sold out by far. So it’s an excellent

Kelly Barner (56:58):

Read it’s about technology, but it’s

Jacob Gorm (57:01):

Of course also it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s very focused on procurement, uh, on, uh, on digitizing negotiations, on use of auctions, of course. So maybe, maybe, uh, focused on, on the procurement community. Love it.

Scott Luton (57:14):

Uh, and, and really enjoyed your POV here today. Jacob, um, Marcell, let’s go to you. Uh you’re you’re everywhere. I love the CA again, we’re, we’re big fans here. It’s easy for folks to find you and tune into your POV, but how would you suggest they do that?

Marcell Vollmer (57:29):

So, definitely, um, LinkedIn social media is a great thing. Also form on LinkedIn and form a one on, on is my Twitter handle it or P2P also to, to, um, drop me a note@formadogmassellatbcg.com. I basically engage on all different platforms, but I prefer social media because it is real time and it is really a gateway connecting, staying connected as well as also interact with people. I love it, but I would also laugh and hopefully this will become reality in the future very soon. So we meet at a conference or having such a session somewhere and life environment, probably going for coffee after waltz for dinner in the evening, whatever. I would love to see that coming back very soon as well. Thank you all. Get red wine and ride bikes and we’ll drink some good wine and we’ll ride some fights.

Scott Luton (58:24):

Y’all to bring your, uh, bring your app so we can, we can double check the source. It would be great. Well, really a pleasure and honor to be with you both here today. Thanks so much for your time. We’ve been talking with Dr. Marcell Volmer partner at Boston consulting group and Jacob Gorm Larsen director of digital procurement at the Maersk group. Also author of a practical guide to E auctions for procurement, how to maximize impact with east sourcing and EA negotiation. A pleasure and honor. Thanks so much for your time here today. We’ll see you soon. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Have a good one.

Intro/Outro (59:00):

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