“Building relationships is not about finding likeminded people; it’s about finding those people who will make you better because they see things different or because they have experiences that you don’t.”

Jeff Lerner, Vice President of Marketing at Flock Freight

Digital marketing is a highly complex business, full of nuances and technical strategies. Jeff Lerner has worked on all sides of the market: on the media side, on the agency side, and in corporate marketing. In all three roles, he learned how to use the digital marketing to reach customers and build meaningful relationships.

He sees a similar challenge in online networking, drawing a line between ‘connections’ on platforms such as LinkedIn and real relationships: the people who make up the inner circle for any of us professionally. That recognition led Jeff to write The Power of Relationships in Professional Growth, a book about the various tactics and methodologies for building quality professional connections and maintaining them in the long term.

In this conversation, Jeff tells Supply Chain Now Host Jamin Alvidrez about:

· What it was like interviewing for a job at Google, what parts of the experience of working there he still carries with him, and why he made the decision to leave

· Why we should stop thinking of connections as people who may be able to do something for us, and start seeing them as opportunities to offer something of value to another person

· How he made the transition into the freight industry without any experience in supply chain or logistics, and what he has learned about messaging to these specific customers

Jamin Alvidrez (00:00:07):

Hey, freight tribe. In today’s episode, we’re joined by Jeff Lerner. We cover it all. We talk about pizza, his love of sports, his years at Google and all of the stuff we can learn from them there. That was fun. And also how he decided to, you know, casually write a book when his family was away on vacation. So cool. And last but not least, we get to learn more about what he’s currently doing at flock freight as a vice president of marketing. All right. I hope you enjoy without further ado. Let’s get after it. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome to the freight tribe. Thank you for joining us today. We’re going to be talking to Jeff Lerner, the vice president of marketing for flock freight. What I’m hoping that we can get is his thoughts, his mindset on just diverse experience. He started with Google and now he found his way to our crazy corner of the world, the freight and logistics industry.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:01:09):

So we’d love to get his mindset and see what we can learn from him, what we could copy from his experiences. So Jeff, without further ado, I’d like to introduce yet to everybody. Thank you for joining us. It’s my pleasure, Jay man. How you doing? Doing really good. So as we usually like to kick off in the show, humanize the talent a little bit, make you sound like a circus animal. There you go. Where’d you grow up? Jeff. I grew up in New York, about 20 minutes outside of Manhattan. So then where, where do you live? Everyone from New York has some strong feelings on sports teams. Where’s your allegiances. I have very strong opinions and feelings. You know, I’m a, I’m a big Mets fan. I’m a giants fan. I’m an Islanders fan basketball. I mean, I guess I’m a Knicks fan, although that’s kind of painful to admit, you know, over the last couple of decades, but certainly certainly very strong opinions when it comes to those, those choices.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:02:11):

Yes, no, I really appreciate the East coast passion for sports. I love it. And you know, that’s the, not the, I almost said the original, but really that’s such passionate fans for the brand, for the logo. Yeah. So I imagine that has to resonate with you on a, in your marketing side of the brain. Yeah. You know, it’s interesting, you, you don’t, you know, you realize that like certain elements of the brand of the sports team that you love sticks with you in ways, which you never imagined. You know, I sit here now all the time with, with two little kids. And even when I’m looking to do something cool with them, and we’re talking about colors, like my mind navigates towards this blue and orange, cause you

Jeff Lerner (00:03:00):

Know, that’s the Mets, that’s the Islanders, you know, that’s the Knicks. So like it’s just, you know, somehow ingrained in me that like that color combination of blue and orange like means something to me.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:03:12):

Yeah. That’s a good point. What do you have a, like a pivotal sports memory in your mind painful or good?

Jeff Lerner (00:03:20):

I have a lot of painful sports memories, especially being a Mets fan. You know, probably my greatest sports memory is when I worked at Google, the NFL was one of my clients and having conversations with them throughout, you know, one of the football seasons I’d always said, damn man, I’d love to go to a super bowl. My girlfriend at the time was a big Patriots fan. And of course she was like, Hey, if the Patriots go to the super bowl, you know, I want to go. And I said, of course, but if the giants go to the super bowl, like I have to take my buddies cause we go to giants games together. Well, sure enough, the giants ended up playing the Patriots in the Superbowl. I asked my buddy if he wants to go, he, for some reason said no. And so yeah, mind blown.

Jeff Lerner (00:04:04):

And uh, so I asked, you know, I said to my girlfriend, Hey, you know what, like, yeah, by all means, you know, come to the super bowl. So we went down to Arizona, watch the giants, you know, when that super bowl with that last second heroic helmet catch. And you know, I ended up marrying her probably because she was so happy seeing how happy I was that the giants won as much as she was disappointed that the Patriots legit, she was just like enjoying the moment of like my appreciation, my love, I may or may not have shed a tear, you know, just seeing that all and being there. So yeah. So, you know, I had to marry her.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:04:44):

That is a legit legit test of a partner. That’s a rider die right there. Exactly. Oh man. I’ll never forget that Tyree catch. I mean, that’s one of the amazing moments

Jeff Lerner (00:04:56):

Sports that it is. And like every time that they replay that Superbowl on TV, I make sure I sit the kids down and say, guys, let’s watch this. You know what let’s, you know, that’s our battle is we’re always debating whether they’re giant spans or Patriots fans. For me, it’s not a choice. Like they’re, they’re giants fans, you know, it’s, it’s part of our relationship for sure. Favorite toy as a child, man. Do you know those? It was like, I can’t remember the name of it. Maybe labyrinth or something like that, that kind of like box with the marble that you had to like move the levers to like move and you’d have like a wooden wooden box. Yeah. And you had to get the marble like all the way around without it falling in all the holes. I loved that thing. I would sit there for hours, like trying to get it from start to finish without falling down all of those little holes in between. And I, I mean, I’m sure I had other toys and things and Legos and all the typical toys of childhood, but that thing just always stood out to me as a really cool toy that I enjoyed playing with.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:05:59):

That’s awesome. Yeah. I wonder what happened to those? I feel like when I was younger, I saw saw those around a lot and it would have the little silver ball like marble.

Jeff Lerner (00:06:07):

Yup. Yeah. I’ll check that out. I know now that you asked, like, I feel like I have to go on Amazon or whatever it is and try and find one.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:06:15):

Yes. So then what’s a, uh, let’s go, let’s go teenage years. All right. What’s a memory from middle school or high school time that you find yourself reflecting on a lot in your professional life.

Jeff Lerner (00:06:31):

You know, my, my grandmother was a guidance counselor in the middle school, uh, you know, in the district where I, where I lived and I remember probably so may have been like, right, like a year or two before I went to middle school. So I was probably, you know, 12, you know, 11, 12 or something at the time we were at my grandmother’s house over the summer, you know, having a barbecue, like we always did. And she had a note cards with every incoming student’s name and like something about them. And she would have me quiz her. And I was always like, what are we doing? Like it’s, it’s summertime. Like what? And she’s like, I want the kids, when they show up at school, I want to know who they are before they have to like tell me who they are, what the, you know, like something about them.

Jeff Lerner (00:07:19):

Like I want to have like a, an understanding of them beforehand, because I want them to feel welcomed, to feel secure, you know? And that stuck with me. I mean, obviously it’s a little different in what I do compared to what she was doing, but it’s this idea, this concept of, you know, always trying to remember names, to remember something about an individual. If you’re going to go meet with somebody that you haven’t met with like do a little research, you know, figure out something about them, you know, it’s better to, to, to meet someone for the first time and be like, Oh, Hey. Yeah. So, and so like, you know, I read about you and this, or, you know, something that indicates like you’ve taken the time to show interest in them because that to me is what builds connections and relationships. So that’s always kind of been part of who I am is like, I don’t want to show up cold and be like, Oh, who are you telling me something about yourself? Like, you know, I want to have a background in my head first.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:08:17):

That’s fantastic. And I imagine, and we’ll get to this little later that that had to be pivotal in being in your mind when you wrote your book as well. Now I’m getting a little context, as I learned about you. This is fantastic. So then let’s end on before we get into some meat and potatoes, let’s go to, this might get real controversial. I don’t know. Where is the best slice of pizza?

Jeff Lerner (00:08:40):

I mean, you know, I, I’m a big believer in, in kind of all pizza is good pizza, you know, it’s kind of like, even when it’s bad, it’s still better than most other foods, the super food. Yeah. You know, I also believe that, you know, any pizza, any size, the pizza can be a personal pizza if you really put your heart into it. So, you know, you’re going to absolutely. Yeah. There’s no limits on like a personal pizza is only, you know, yay. Big. I mean, I’m a new Yorker. It’s like, you know, a thin crust, you know, good form. I want my pizza where I can fold it and it doesn’t flop over like that to me is, you know, quality pizza.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:09:19):

All right. So that’s the test. Okay. Yeah. Noted. Yeah. No, there’s, there’s few things in life is amazing. It’s just a nice slice.

Jeff Lerner (00:09:29):

Yeah. Simple, you know, like it’s really like three ingredients. It’s not that difficult, but like man, a good pizza, like it makes me feel good.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:09:38):

So then that’s that begs the follow up then? Is that what a real slice of pizza is? Pepperoni or is it cheese? What about when people throw the kitchens, everything, but the kitchen sink on it, are you supportive?

Jeff Lerner (00:09:50):

I am a supporter of, of all of it where I kind of start questioning it is when you get to the pineapple, you know, like I, I get it. I’m not here to tell anybody that they’re wrong, you know, put on your pizza, whatever makes you happy. But for me, like the sweetness of a fruit on a pizza, like it, to me, it does it, you know, it kind of loses that connection, but that’s just one man’s opinion. I will never tell anybody what they should or should not do with their pizza.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:10:22):

Nice. You’re you’re you do you boo uh, pizza guy just mind the full, right,

Jeff Lerner (00:10:26):

Right. Don’t tell me, you know, like I’m going to do my own thing. So you do yours.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:10:33):

Heck yeah. All right. Let’s get into a little more the professional side here. So we can glean from me everything we can. Yup. I had heard you in an interview speak to, uh, you know, you were a Googler, one of the originals, and you talked about their rigorous interview process. If you wouldn’t mind taking us through that interview process, what you learned going through that process and you went through it successfully, you got hired and what you, you keep with you today from that process.

Jeff Lerner (00:11:03):

Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, when I was interviewing for Google, it was back in 2004, uh, in the New York office, which, you know, there are only, you know, maybe 200 people in the New York office at Google at that time. And I was interviewing for, you know, kind of a, an inside sales job. And, you know, I always knew I wanted to be in marketing. And this was kind of like the get started into that marketing world was, you know, being on the sales are, you know, part of the organization. And so, you know, the interview process took, you know, months. It was very long and drawn out lots of different questions and, and work. But what really stood out for me was I went into an interview and one of the, you know, the sales leaders there basically said like, okay, here, we’re going to do a couple of different activities.

Jeff Lerner (00:11:52):

And I was like, okay. And he was like, first, I want you to look around the room and I want you to tell me how many basketballs you think could fill up this room, like from floor to ceiling, wall to wall, how many basketballs fit in this room? And I immediately like sweat pouring. I’m like, Oh, I don’t know. Like, I’m looking around trying to measure in my head, but like, I, you know, come up with an answer and I give it to him and he just doesn’t say anything. And then he says, okay, well, you know, how many Dunkin donuts do you think are in New York city? And I was like, you know, and, and again, like, so in my mind I was, you know, I went to this place where I was like, I don’t know. I think there’s probably a Dunkin donuts.

Jeff Lerner (00:12:31):

Like every two blocks if I figure like I don’t 125 ish blocks, times 10 avenues, like I’m in. So I did the math in my head and gave him a number. And so, you know, he was like, okay, good. He’s like both of those, you answered correctly. I was like, Oh, I know the number of Dunkin donuts in New York city. He was like, no, you don’t like, I don’t even know the number, but what I wanted to do is understand your thought process. And so you had a logical thought process of trying to calculate it. The next step in that was, he’s like, I have a bunch of index cards and I want you to tell me a story and I’m going to throw down an index card with a word on it. And in your very next sentence, you have to include that work.

Jeff Lerner (00:13:09):

So we went through this process where I’m telling the story, and I remember it like I’m walking through the woods and, you know, I saw Jerry Seinfeld and, you know, we ran into a Tyrannosaurus Rex on the way to an Ohio state football game. Like all of these things, cause he’s an Ohio state guy and he kept throwing down these cards. And I was like, again, like, what is this? And he’s like, I want to see how well you think on your feet. So it was kind of a combination of all of these things where like, after an hour, like I’m sweaty, I can’t unified, but what I’ve taken from that, I don’t do the index card question, but I do often ask a question around like how many Starbucks there may be, how many basketballs or something else would fit in a room. Because I kinda liked that idea of like, I just want to see how someone thinks. And I’ve interviewed people before who have just been like, I don’t know. And you know, again, like that stands out to me is like, you’re not even giving it that thought of trying to come up with an answer. So it’s not necessarily a make it or break it question for me, but kind of something that I’ve just used to kind of just dive a little deeper into someone’s head.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:14:18):

That’s great. So even starting at Google, you’re there in the beginning and you went from, I believe in correct me where I’m wrong, you’re at a startup and, and, uh, they, they kind of decided to go a different way with their business. Did you identify Google at that time? Oh, is this Oh three Oh four where you’re like, Ooh, that is a company I want to be involved in. How did the process come about? Were you tagged interviewing with Google?

Jeff Lerner (00:14:48):

Yeah, it, you know, I mean, here it is back to 2003, 2004. And, and while everyone knew Google, like the search engine, it wasn’t like the Google we know today. Um, we hardly knew what a search engine was. Yeah. I mean, Gmail didn’t exist, you know, like Google Dogpile guy in the beginning, you know? And so like, it’s I knew like, you know, yeah. I knew the company, it sounded cool. Like I saw they had openings. So I applied, you know, online just, you know, thinking like, man, this would be cool. And what they’re doing aligns with what I want to do. There was nothing, you know, I was way too immature and young to think like, this is Google. Like what would this mean for like my professional growth and my, you know, uh, you know, stock options or equity. Like I was just thinking like, I want a good job. And that’s what it was. And it was an amazing job, you know, for seven years, like I loved everything about it and leaving Google was one of the hardest decisions I ever made, but like I have absolutely no regrets about, about my time there.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:15:54):

I want to come back to that. A couple of questions about, you’re such a good example of being intentional about your personal growth in your career, but I want to talk for a minute about the sales part of what you were selling at Google. I imagine at that time ad words and the different functionality and abilities of what you’re selling were somewhat of a foreign concept or at the very least a new concept to those you were approaching. And I fast forward thinking about what you’re doing at flock freight. Now, what are some lessons learned in helping people’s mind begin to visualize and adopt something they didn’t even know, 30 seconds before they started talking to you as possible?

Jeff Lerner (00:16:33):

You know, it was definitely a learning experience for me, you know, on that side. It is whether I knew it or not. I was learning very quickly about the idea of consultative selling. I was learning about the idea of, it’s not a matter of what I have to offer. It’s a, it’s really important for me to make the connection as to why it’s important for you. And that’s part of what I do today. I mean that that’s my world. And so back then it was calling companies and you know, sometimes you just need to reframe the question because Edwards was such a new thing. And there were a lot of companies, both big fortune 500 and small mom and pops that had different reasons why ad words just didn’t sound like a good idea to them. And when you reframed it, as you know, Hey, look, if you had 50 bucks and you could walk into a room and say, I have $50, I’m looking to sell something that’s worth 500 bucks, but I’m only going to give this 50 bucks to someone who’s probably likely to buy that.

Jeff Lerner (00:17:36):

And you just ask the question like, Hey, who’s interested in some guy raises his hand and says, yeah, I want that. You’re willing to give that guy your 50 bucks. You’re not going to give it to anybody else. And people will be like, yeah, that makes sense. I’m like, well, that’s what you’re doing with, with ad words, you’re only paying for people who are raising their hand, AKA clicking on your ad to go to your website. So it’s not this big expense of, you know, trying to appeal to the masses. You’re being targeted to find those that raise their hand. And so that concept, like that’s what yielded success for me. And that’s something that I’ve brought with me everywhere. I’ve gone in my professional careers to really understand that there are a lot of different stages of marketing that, you know, until you get to the point where you’re running a Superbowl ad, you know, like you have to be more targeted in your marketing budgets and your tactics because that’s what yields results.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:18:30):

So what I’m hearing there, which is, this is awesome, is that really sales and marketing here, you use that illustration or that story, is that kind of what you mean by sometimes how you frame it up or you got to reframe it as you’re just telling a story,

Jeff Lerner (00:18:45):

Both sales and marketing are storytelling, you know, in sales, you’re telling it usually on a more one-to-one basis. Cause you get someone on the phone or you’re in a person, in a meeting. Marketing is how do you tell that story to a much larger audience? So then get them to say, you know what? Like I want to learn even more. I want to dig even deeper in which case, then you make the introduction to sales. And so that’s why a sales and marketing partnership is so vital in an organization. They can’t be silent because if you have a marketing org saying, this is our message, this is our story. This is our benefit. And the sales guy gets on the phone and doesn’t kind of come up a behind what, that same message and kind of really drive it home. You’re completely disconnected. So yeah, sales and marketing go hand in hand. And if they’re not, then you have issues for sure.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:19:41):

Oh, a hundred percent. Uh, I see that all too often. I’m sure I’m preaching to the choir here, but it’s a joint opportunity to go, go forward and tell that story. So everyone in the organization’s connected telling the same story. It’s like clashing cymbals. When you hear, you know, sales guy saying one thing and marketing another, how do you avoid, you know, this is something that comes up and specifically freight tech a lot. How do you avoid when you’re framing up an offering, getting too focused on features purely and just presenting features? How do you, or how do you speak to your team about not going down that path?

Jeff Lerner (00:20:22):

It’s always, it’s always a challenge because you want, I mean, I’m proud of where I work. I love what we’re doing. It’s unique, it’s special. Like I want to tell everyone here’s what we do and why. And like, this is how, and you know, but that doesn’t resonate. It’s kind of that idea of consultative, selling, going out and telling everyone what I do or what we do. And the features that we have means very little to that individual or that organization, what works is when you talk about, you know, not the features, but the benefits, you know, start with how, you know, not, not the, what you do and the details, but the impact that it can have. If you talk to a, you know, if we talk to a shipper and say, Hey, I’d like to uncover, like what happens when you have six pallets that need to get moved?

Jeff Lerner (00:21:13):

How are you typically shipping that? And they tell you their story and you ask more questions like, you know, what is the biggest challenge you’re facing? You know? And then you can talk about how we have a solution or something else. But if you kind of just start a conversation with a shipper of, Hey, let me tell you what we do. You know, they’ve heard that like as soon as you start with, let me tell you what we do, they tune out because they’re used to everybody telling them how, what you do is different and unique and better. And it’s all about solving a business need for someone else. That’s what we’re in the business to do. We are solving the needs of someone, whether they know they have that need where they don’t know. And that’s also part of my job.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:21:58):

That’s great. I think that’s the perfect way to, to look at it. We’re all we all have this, uh, selfishness, uh, just in us, right? We’re just human sadly. So that, that’s a really good way to look at it.

Jeff Lerner (00:22:12):

The easiest thing to talk, it’s easy to talk about your company, your product, your solution, because you know it, you know, and it’s not always easy. And I was certainly guilty of this as a young sales person of, you know, it’s uncomfortable to ask questions about somebody else’s business, you know, to ask someone, what is the challenge that you’re facing? Like, that’s a tough question for some, you know, for some people to ask, because you’re asking someone to admit a shortcoming that they have in their business, but it’s an essential one because you can’t solve a problem or an unmet need until you know what it is.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:22:50):

Yes. What I like when I hear you saying there, that I think is clutched the way you put it as essentially the, the, the answers we seek not to try to sound dramatic, but a lot of the good stuff lies on the other side of our comfort level, right? So uncomfortable questions, or maybe not uncomfortable may be uncomfortable to us. Right. And really putting ourselves out there and going into that unknown one last Google question. What was it like going to Brazil and opening up an office, a new branch of the business. I imagine that has to be an experience you draw

Jeff Lerner (00:23:25):

Often. It is. And, you know, I loved my time there, you know, the office in Brazil had opened, you know, a few months prior, it was staffed out, but they didn’t have, and mostly on the engineering front and other things, but they had a sales team and, you know, they didn’t have a sales leader. And so I applied to go down there and again, like it was, you know, an internal application process. I had to write an essay, which, you know, you would’ve thought like after high school, like your days of writing essays were over. Nope. On why I wanted to go and what it would mean. And so I went down there at, you know, and worked with the newly hired sales leader to kind of teach, you know, what it is that we do, you know, we’re doing in the States that worked well for us in terms of consultative, selling how to ask the right questions, uh, objection, handling techniques, you know, really just helping this very young, you know, sales team, you know, that was, you know, I think there were only maybe about six people help set them up for success so that they were calling on all of the different companies in Latin America to help them with their marketing efforts and get the, you know, what they needed.

Jeff Lerner (00:24:39):

And, and, and my time there, wild, wild, you know, short I’ve, I have, you know, lasting friendships from there, people that I speak to, you know, quite often, but what I really learned was talk about being outside your comfort zone. Here I am, I speak only English. I do speak a little Spanish, but in Brazil they speak Portuguese. And so when these individuals were having their sales calls, it’s all in Portuguese. So I couldn’t listen on the sales call and then like, come back to them with feedback and say, Oh, I would have asked a question different. So it had to be about how do I build trust very quickly so that they’re willing to say to me, you know what, here’s what I said. And here’s what they told me. I don’t think I did this well, how would you have done it different?

Jeff Lerner (00:25:27):

So it needed to be them coming to me, the, the, the salespeople at Google saying to me, I need your help. I didn’t do this well because I couldn’t just listen on my own. And that’s a lot of trust. That’s it? That’s exactly it. So that was me talking to them and showing them like, I’m vulnerable. I’m not perfect. Like I’ve made these mistakes. I shared with them some of my worst sales call stories, because I want them to see, like, there’s a human behind this. It’s not machines and failing is okay if you get yourself, if you pull yourself up and try again. And so building that trust very quickly was really important. Cause I only had, you know, you know, limited time there. I couldn’t wait, you know, three months for them to trust me. It needed to happen immediately.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:26:15):

Yeah. That is, that’s such a good way to look at. It really starts so much pivots off that trust in any relationship. So I had mentioned, we’d come back to this. I really appreciate how intentional you’ve been with your, you know, we’ll call it ownership of career and having a personal vision for yourself and your career. What skills and experiences you want to go out and get. I’d like to talk about that because I think we can learn a lot from you there. So let me back up and that, do you have, does it start as this? Do you start to formulate a vision and a path of, Hey, I want to get these skills, these experiences do this, or it’s you just come to certain checkpoints and then kind of inherently know, okay. I need to go look elsewhere to get my next step.

Jeff Lerner (00:27:04):

Yeah. I think it became a little bit more organic in that, like I would reach points, you know? So, so after seven years at Google, like I loved it. I mean the perks, everyone talks about it. World-class, I mean, I was eating lobster risotto for lunch, you know, three times a week. Like I could not complain at all, but I also felt that, you know, whether I was right or wrong, that like, you know, I could continue to have a great job at Google for a long time. But what I wanted to do was kind of figure out my career. And every, as a salesperson at Google, like a lot of the conversations we started to have as we expanded and got bigger, it was with marketing agencies, talking to them about budget allocation. You know, if their client gave them $10 million, like what percent are they allocating to search to display ads, to video, to other elements of, of, you know, digital marketing.

Jeff Lerner (00:28:01):

And I want to understand that better. You know, like I could ask agencies all day long, but like I wanted to live that world. And so I met someone who, you know, had, had built a marketing agency. They were, you know, relatively small and really focused only on SEO. And they were looking to kind of grow into more complete digital marketing. And through my conversations with her, she said, look, I’d really love for you to, if you’re willing to leave Google, like I’d love for you to join us and kind of help us help lead us in that, you know, becoming a much more full service digital marketing agency. And, you know, I thought, yeah, like this aligns with how I’m going to learn. And so I did that and, and, you know, I spent the next couple of years building out that agency and really understanding in more detail, you know, kind of what it means to think about budget allocation.

Jeff Lerner (00:28:53):

Like how are decisions made? How are, you know, all these different elements tracked? Like what are the expectations of a client and understanding the clients and the customer, you know, that the agency clients, that’s what led me to thinking, all right, now I need a job in like corporate marketing world, because now I’ve been on the media side, I’ve been in the agency side. Now I want to be corporate marketing. Cause I really want to understand that world. And then, you know, kind of see how all of these elements play together. And so right around this time as hurricane Sandy comes through, like completely messes up life, you know, in New York, my wife had lived in San Diego previously and had been in my ear since the day we met, we should move to San Diego. Sure. It’s an amazing city. Yeah. And I was always like, why would you ever want to leave New York?

Jeff Lerner (00:29:48):

This place is amazing. But you know, after hurricane Sandy, we finally said, I was like, you know what, I’ll consider it. I have to find a job, but you know, I’ll consider it. So I went on on LinkedIn and of course the usual things, and I actually found, you know, a woman who was a client at, when I was at the agency, she had taken a new job as the VP of eCommerce at cricket wireless, a company that I had never heard of because I’m an East coaster and cricket was really, you know, predominantly Southwest at that time. And I reached out to her just saying like, Hey, if you know of anything, I’m considering a move. And she wrote back immediately and was like, we need to talk. And I got on the phone with her and she’s like, I’m building out a team. I need someone to lead all of our digital marketing efforts. You know, how quickly can you get on a plane to come out here and talk to me? So here I was like, this was kind of like November, whatever it is of that year, I told my family, you know, we’ll, we’ll probably move, but like it may take a year and whatever it is, well, six weeks later, like I had a job in San Diego and was getting ready to move. But so that’s what got me started in kind of the corporate marketing world.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:31:01):

Oh, wow. So right there, we’re seeing convergence of, uh, or organic opportunity. Then there’s some intentional going after change and new experiences. That’s, that’s really cool. So that brings me to, and I want to get the title, write a book. You wrote the power of relationships and professional growth. And to me, that’s a perfect segue into it because when I hear that title, that is what you’re talking about. So you wrote about inaction, this relationship, this networking you had clearly done over the years, and now you’ve leveraged that and got a position in San Diego. What is that book about and what made you want to write it?

Jeff Lerner (00:31:43):

It’s all the things I wish someone had taught me. I was naive and thinking like, if you’re connected with someone on LinkedIn, like they are your advocate and your supporter, and like they will go to bat for you or help you. And that’s not necessarily true. I mean, there are some great people on LinkedIn don’t get me wrong, but it does just because you’re connected on LinkedIn. I mean, I’m connected with thousands of people on LinkedIn. And I can honestly tell you, I could not pick 98% of them out of a lineup, but that’s just, that’s the nature of what it is. And so the book was really, you know, the things that I’ve learned along the way, like the importance of kind of creating an inner circle, you know, those people who will talk about you, even when you’re not in the room. So, you know, for example, if, if there’s a, you know, three people sitting at a coffee at a coffee table, you know, a coffee shop having a conversation.

Jeff Lerner (00:32:35):

And one of them says like, Oh yeah, you know, our marketing efforts are, you know, are terrible. And you know, we really need to Uplevel that someone there who’s like, don’t, don’t look any further. I know the guy for you, you know, and if he’s not the guy, like he will know someone who can help you, you know? So it’s, how do you build that? And it’s looking at today’s world and saying like, yeah, just because, you know, I may send you a LinkedIn message or like something that you do or whatever. Again, doesn’t make you part of my inner circle. Like it takes effort. It takes time. Like it takes commitment, you know? So it’s kind of like the, when I think about like the, all the courses and classes, I wish I learned, you know, they had in college that they just didn’t because college is all about like biology, sociology, what not like how to maintain a good credit score and you know, how to build quality relationships.

Jeff Lerner (00:33:25):

Like that’s kind of what it was meant to be for me. So the audience was really young professionals, either, you know, recent college graduates or, you know, to understand that building a professional relationship is possibly one of the most important things that you will do. And it can’t be something that you kind of casually go into expecting it to yield results for you. It takes effort, it takes time and it’s worthwhile, you know, it may not be worthwhile today, but you never know six years from now, when that conversation may, may yield something positive for you.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:34:03):

Okay. Put that building. Cause that, you know, gets the imagination of like, okay, there’s work involved. I have to bring materials to this. It is a building effort it’s not instant or overnight or something. That’s just like you say, casual, what was that process of writing a book? Like take us through that. That seems like in my head, that’s such a cool thing you did. But if I look at, you know, for so many of us looking at a blank piece of paper is very daunting.

Jeff Lerner (00:34:33):

It was like, it’s, it’s it wasn’t easy. Um, I can’t say I will do it again, although I never would’ve said I would’ve done it in the first place. So, so who knows, you know, what was interesting about it is, you know, so this was right. It was before my second kid was born and you know, it was over the summer and my wife went back East to visit her family in Maine and to visit some friends in Ohio. And she brought, you know, our son with her, you know, I was working and she just had more, more vacation time than I did. And so I was kind of, you know, flying solo for a couple of weeks, you know, that summer. And there’s only so much TV. Like I could just sit down and watch like when she’s not here. And, you know, so for whatever reason, like I just, I thought I would write an article I’ve contributed to, you know, online publications in the past, you know, and writing about marketing things.

Jeff Lerner (00:35:26):

So I thought like I’ll craft like an article, which I could, you know, send to, to, you know, any numerous, you know, outlet. And when I started kind of with an outline and thinking through it, you know, all of a sudden I was like, all right, I have a lot of words. Like this is not an article. So now I have two choices. Do I like try to strip it down and make it an article? Do I break it into a couple of different articles? Where do I just keep going and have this become something bigger? And so that’s what happened. Like it took a long time to kind of finish it and put the finishing touches on it. Then of course I’ve met with like, okay, like I wrote a book, it sounds good in my head. Like I had to go find it, you know, editors and you know, all sorts of different people, of course, thank goodness the internet, you know, you can get connected with amazing people and I’m doing all of this while I haven’t told my wife any of it.

Jeff Lerner (00:36:15):

So she, she comes back, you know, and I’m still working on it, you know, kind of somewhat secretively and, uh, you know, and so one night we’re out for dinner and, you know, I said, I’m like, look, just, just say, no, like over the last three months I’ve been writing a book and she was like, what are you talking about? And I gave her like, you know, the, the, you know, printed computer paper, manuscript or manuscript, I don’t know, you know, draft and, you know, she was, she kind of gave me this look of like, what is this? And I was like, well, you were gone. Like I had something to do. And so that, that’s where it all came from. And, you know, so it probably took in total, you know, maybe about six months, long process, expensive process, hiring talented editors to, to proofread and edit and comment like that. That’s pricey. But man, like is such a worthwhile experience. Cause I look back at it now and I’m like, you know, again, like I’m not an author. I don’t want to see, you know, kind of claim to be some expert. Like this is my life. This is what I wish I knew. And if this could help one person with their growth and their understanding, then I’ve done my job,

Jamin Alvidrez (00:37:22):

Hearing the background behind it. That makes so much sense of how it’s put together. And I liked that it wasn’t too, too long or too short. It’s just enough for someone to consume and then then apply what would be some advice from that book then too. So we have a lot of young professionals, specifically, many of them in the freight logistics and transportation

Jeff Lerner (00:37:45):

World, what would be some

Jamin Alvidrez (00:37:47):

Practical advice from that book that you’d give a young professional in our world to, to leverage, uh, especially during this time where maybe we’re, we can’t go to a conference and bump into different people. We gotta put ourselves out there a little more. What could you share?

Jeff Lerner (00:38:04):

I’d share with them to buy the book? No, I think it’s all in there. I mean, yeah, no, I mean they could buy the book. They would be like the fifth person to buy it. That’s how, you know, you know, I think for me, what really continues to be so important to me and what I think about all the time is effort in relationships. It’s weird in the sense of like, everything we do is, you know, technological and online and so easy to just comment on Facebook or whatever it is. It’s so easy to even send a text message, but for your inner circle that you want to create, you know, for those who, you know, again, like don’t, don’t look at someone and say like, how are they going to benefit me? Cause that’s, that’s wrong. But look at people who are challenge you, you know, it’s not about finding likeminded people.

Jeff Lerner (00:38:54):

It’s about finding those who will in some way make you better because they see things different or because they have experienced that you don’t. But when you meet those people, like be open with them and say, you know, talk about mentors and you know, it’s, there’s nothing wrong with saying to someone who has experience that you’re hoping to gain, you know, Hey, I look at what you’ve done. You know, I’m really fascinated by it. Like I would love to be able to have a conversation with you, talk to you more about your experience and learn from what you’ve accomplished, mistakes you may have made. Like, I want to learn that. And I’d like to consider you a mentor. That means that not only having those conversations, but following through having phone calls or zooms, as we’re doing kind of everyday, now, those are the things that are so important.

Jeff Lerner (00:39:43):

It can’t just be, I’m going to shoot you a text or, or comment on your LinkedIn every once in awhile and expect you to remember me and who I am when you are having coffee with somebody, you know, six months from now. And they say, Hey, do you know anyone who does this, this or that? So it’s how do you, can you build and foster relationships of those people who will, who will inevitably make you better, but who you’re not asking them like, Hey, you hire me or do this. Like, it’s just challenged me to be better than I am today to learn, to grow, to get out of my comfort zone. Like those are the types of people you want surrounding you, because that’s going to make you better.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:40:29):

I really appreciate how you put that in call it, fostering those relationships. That’s a, that’s a, I think the perfect description. What would be advice then for this young professional, we may feel a little bit intimidated to reach out to some of these Titans in our industry. What is something that a young professional could offer? So it doesn’t just feel like, you know, asking and taking a what’s something on the front end of value that, uh, uh, the average young pro can can offer.

Jeff Lerner (00:40:58):

I think there are people in this world I like to consider myself one of them that want to give back that don’t have an expectation of getting something in return other than the, the feeling like just that, you know, I don’t know. It’s just a feel good for me when I can, you know, have a conversation with someone, talk to them, help them with their career and whatever. I’m not really looking for anything back. It’s also why, like I literally have given away more copies of my book that I have sold because like, I want that to be something that someone can read and takes and take something from it. Even if, I mean, again, I didn’t write it to make money, you know, like, let’s be clear, like I have lost more money than I’ve made with this book. And I’m really okay with that because if it helps someone that is worth it for me.

Jeff Lerner (00:41:53):

And so if you’re a young professional, who’s looking for a mentor, someone that you can partner with or have those conversations, if they’re looking to you to gain something out of it, it’s not going to work. But if they’re looking at it as, you know what, like they want to give back to someone who’s where they probably once were and they want to help someone in their careers because giving back is so important and it’s giving back a time. It’s not a financial give back. It’s, I’m willing to give you my time because it’s so important and valuable, then those are the people you want to have those connections with. Anyway,

Jamin Alvidrez (00:42:29):

You bring up a good point, how you didn’t write the book per se, with financial gain and in, and do you feel that personally you benefited and kind of crystallize some of those truths that you were the one that wrote it, but did you find that it actually helped you, you know, be able to apply those lessons better?

Jeff Lerner (00:42:48):

Yeah, for sure. It’s a, it’s amazing how, like, when you, you take your, your inner workings of your brain and you put it on paper and then you read it back to yourself, hundreds of times. Cause that’s what you did when you were writing a book, you see things that pop out at you. You’re like, wow, you know what? Like I wrote about this concept and this concept, but there’s actually like crossover here. Like they, they, they, they connect in some way. And so you identify those things like as you’re writing them and reading it back to yourself and that happened, you know, a few times, like, you know, again, it’s all about understanding. And, and for me it was just like the reinforcement of the idea that I, and I talk about. It is probably the most common phrase in the book is inner circle, you know, and what that really meets.

Jeff Lerner (00:43:31):

And so I kept, you know, I was talking about like, yeah, you know, how group of close people and close, you know, but it’s then the idea of what that means and what that really especially means when you’re not in the room. What does that mean? You know, when they’re having conversations with others, what does that mean in opportunities for new careers, you know, and new thing, like it’s, it’s tying all these different elements together. And that also means effort. It means time, it means engagement. It means offering your services or your, you know, being a sounding board for them as well. It can’t be a one way street, you know, just because they’re part of your inner circle, doesn’t mean you’re expecting things from them. They have to expect things from you as well. So it’s reciprocal in that nature. So kind of tied all of these different threads together, which now I look at relationships differently.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:44:21):

Was it scary to create something that intimate and then put it out there?

Jeff Lerner (00:44:28):

I don’t know if scary is the right word, but it, I don’t

Jamin Alvidrez (00:44:32):

Know. It’s weird,

Jeff Lerner (00:44:32):

You know, like, just like right now, like I feel weird talking about myself this much. Like here we are, you know, 50 minutes in and just talking about me is uncomfortable in a lot of ways, you know, here, this is a book about like, you know, my feelings on relationships and professional growth. And there are unsure many people who will read this book and completely disagree with everything I said and think that what I have in there is, you know, just a bunch of crap, thankfully, no one’s told me that yet, but like, I’m sure that that is true. And so like, it’s kind of weird to think about it. Like it’s, you know, how do you get across this idea of like, this is my experience in my experience only, and you may disagree, but I, you know, I don’t know, like, it’s, it’s, it’s weird to have that idea that like, this is my inner thoughts, like my experiences and someone may pick up that book, read it and just think I’m completely full of it. And that’s okay. It’s just weird. It’s an uneasy feeling at times, but at the same time, like, I’m so glad that I did it. I would not have, I would not go back and change anything.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:45:35):

I’m with you, the personal branding, creating, putting things out there. It is this balance in my head of some uneasiness at times of like, why should people care about this? So what advice would you give? Cause I, I hear that from different people of why they don’t put more out there, why they don’t build, we’ll call it a personal brand as much because they feel like, why should people care? Why should I be talking about myself for drawing attention to myself? I can empathize with that. But what advice would you give to someone to, to strike a balance there?

Jeff Lerner (00:46:11):

That’s probably the hardest thing to, to really identify and to execute a pot. I struggle with it to this day. You, you asked me to have this conversation and you know, I have a lot of respect for you. So of course I’m willing and happy to do it. And I know that this, you know, inevitably is to talk about what we’re doing at flock freight and all those things, but it’s a balance game, you know, like how do you promote yourself and your accomplishments without sounding boastful and egoistic and you know, how do you also make the conversation, even when you’re, someone’s talking about you, but pivoting to others around you. I mean, I could sit here all day long and tell you all of the accomplishments that I have had in my life, in my professional career. There were other people who were part of that, you know, it is a, you know, it’s team efforts.

Jeff Lerner (00:46:59):

My team now at flock freight is probably the best marketing team that I’ve ever worked with. We are a small fierce team and everything that happens like is a result of the, of the collective us it’s understanding and appreciating those things. It’s okay to do self promotion. It’s okay to brand yourself. And you want to be thought of as an expert or a leader in a space, and that’s good. You should go for that. But it’s also too, you know, important to remember, you’re not alone in anybody who talks about I did this, I did that. It was me, me, me, me, they’re missing the point because if I’m going to hire someone, I might, you know, for a role on my team, a senior person. And I asked them to talk about their personal brand and it’s always about them and they, and whatever it is, and not the week, the, how they led a team and collectively did things. They’re probably not the right fit for me. You know, I want someone who has a personal brand, but their brand is also one of collaboration of teamwork, a partnership of humility. I don’t want someone who wants to, you know, stand on top of the mountain and take credit for everybody. Else’s hard work too. So building a personal brand is important, but there is a balance between, you know, the boastful look at me and just trying to create and show your experience

Jamin Alvidrez (00:48:25):

Very, very well said. I really enjoyed that. So then let’s spend this last couple minutes of this interview then talking let’s enough of you. No, no, no, not at all. But, uh, your team, uh, to your point, your, your current team, and I’m sure throughout your career, you worked with so many great individuals and teams. So I’m going to tell you my observation about the flock freight team, what little, I do know as an outsider and you correct me where I’m wrong here, but something that watching flock freight, that really struck me. And as I’ve gotten to know a few, especially the folks on the freight side, Kevin McMasters and the Justin Turner’s real freight freight guys, great guys. But then there’s other people like, like yourself that are new to the freight industry and that the team is both kind of in incumbent freight people and then new ones. And yet speaking the same language in semen, unity of, I hate the term go to market, but just cause I can’t think of a clear way to say it. The messaging we’ll say that’s presented out from the, from the freight folks and from you and your team, it’s a joint message. How the heck do you do that? That doesn’t happen out in the wild.

Jeff Lerner (00:49:41):

It goes back to collaboration and teamwork. You know, like I said, I’m not afraid guy. When I started at flock freight, like I had no idea what the difference between LTL and truckload is. I couldn’t for the life of me understand anything as it related to freight. You know, I understood the parcel world only because I know what it takes to get a package from San Diego to New York. But that was the extent of my education. You know, for me, it was, you know, a lot of learning and very rapidly understanding like the general landscape. But you know, it’s really important as I’ve gotten, you know, it’s been, I’ve been with the company for over a year now, but as we continued to evolve is having those amazing partnerships within the company where I can be vulnerable and I can go to Kevin McMaster or Justin Turner or Orrin, you know, our CEO and say, I don’t understand this.

Jeff Lerner (00:50:33):

Why would X, Y, and Z happened in this scenario? Or why is this better than that? And have them not look at me as like, man, like how, how do you have a job here? But look at me and say, let me explain it to you because you, the leader of the marketing org, it is so vital that you get that so that your team can then learn that from you and you all collectively know it. So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s partnerships, it’s understanding and collaboratively communicating with the rest of the org. And it still happens to this day. I mean, I’m a year plus in, and there are times where Oren will, you know, call me or say to me like, Hey man, you’re the only one that calls it, you know, partial truckload, like they’re partials. We talk about it and you know, industry just partials and I’m like, all right, cool, man, thanks like that.

Jeff Lerner (00:51:20):

That helps me. And so it’s, I want to learn, I want to grow. I want to understand all of those elements and learning from such experienced freight guys helps me. And it also ties into the other side, which as I’m putting up marketing messaging, yes, I can make the assumption that anybody who’s like a senior logistics person at a fortune 5,000 company speaks freight. They may not speak it the same way that adjustin and Kevin who have been in freight, their whole lives might, might speak it. So I’m trying to balance, you know, that as you said, the go to market language that how do we get our brand? How do we get our terminology to resonate with someone who may be in freight and logistics and supply chain, but is also in some ways a consumer of our product. And so the language needs to be a little bit different for them than it would if you’re talking to a carrier, for example. So it’s all about finding that balance of who the message is for who’s the audience and how do you position it. And that’s where Justin and Kevin will come to me sometimes and say, Hey, say this. And I’m like, Oh no, no, no. Like I can’t say that. Here’s how I would do it differently. And they’re like, Oh yeah, no, that makes sense. Like, let’s do it that way too.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:52:35):

So a lot of trust and collaborations is what I’m hearing there. Yeah. For sense, that’s legit and the messaging, the wording, you know, the way we tell the story, it matters as, as we’ve been talking, that’s the main thread I’ve really learned from you here. As we’re talking, I gotta ask real, real granular. The term shared truckload is one that was new to me. Is that something the team came up with together because I’ve noticed that’s been in the messaging now and it helps my brain understand what you’re doing there a little better. I love that. That term.

Jeff Lerner (00:53:07):

Yeah. I’m probably spilling beans here and you know, other things, but the concept has always been there. I mean, you, you talked about consolidators and that’s what they’re doing. They’re sharing a truck with multiple shipments, but as we’ve tried to explain, and you know, in detail, what flock direct the product that you get to purchase that share of a truckload at point of sale. So you say, I have four pallets. I want to move it from San Diego to New York. I don’t want to do LTL. It’s going to take forever. It’s going to get loaded and unloaded 12 times, I’m going to get damaged. We said, yeah, you have a flocked direct, you get truckload service, but for your LTL freight, how do we kind of bring that together? What’s the term. And so we thought about it as a marketing team and we’re like, you know what it is, it shared truckload. It we’re sharing truckload quality service. So it, the concepts have always been there. They’ve always existed. The terminology is certainly something that we’ve aimed to kind of really continue to promote because it’s so descriptive of what we actually do. Yeah.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:54:17):

I like that. That’s I think that’s a good lesson for all of us in whatever we’re messaging, whether it be something from ourselves or a product or an offering to the messaging, the words matter words have meaning and that, and the simplicity,

Jeff Lerner (00:54:31):

Beautiful simplicity. You know, like if you, if you say to someone like, Oh, shared truckload, even if they’ve never heard of us, don’t know what it is in their mind. They can envision what that is. And that’s what we’re really going for is now, you know, obviously we hope that they Google shared truckload and see that flock freight is, is kind of a leader in that space. But that’s the idea is to get the thought of, Hey, I’ve never heard of this or this sounds interesting. I want to learn more. And so when you say flock direct those who don’t know who we are, that that may not resonate, but shared truckload certainly will.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:55:08):

All right. One, one last, a team related question, and then we’ll give you the final word there. Explain to me what all in I’ve, it’s something I’ve heard that the flock freight team say out there, everyone seems to be connected. And what does all in mean to you?

Jeff Lerner (00:55:24):

It’s a mentality. It really is. You know, it means that, you know, we are giving everything. We have to the success of this business and you know, I live and breathe it every single day. And you know, it means, you know, not taking shortcuts. It means that we’re collaborative. It means that we give feedback, you know, like if I can help make someone better and by sharing feedback with them, like I’m going to do that. And I expect them to do that for me. I want someone to pull me aside and say, Hey, I think there’s a better way. You could have done this. Let’s talk about it. You know, that’s part of that, all in approach that all in mentality that says, we’re, we’re together, we’re in this together. We’re locked arm in arm. We have a strategy set forth for us. We know what we’re in this for. And we’re going to give it everything we have both are our blood, sweat, and tears, you know, and the effort. And that means we’re all in for each other as

Jamin Alvidrez (00:56:24):

Yeah. Now I’m ready to go run through a wall.

Jeff Lerner (00:56:27):

That’s exactly. That’s exactly.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:56:30):

That’s so great. Something we can all emulate, whatever we’re, we’re personally trying to attack right now and get after. So thank you for sharing

Jeff Lerner (00:56:38):

Or in the, you know, our CEO would tell you if you’re not all in, like, then you’re just, then you’re not there. You know, like if you’re not willing to give it everything you have, then like this just may not be the place for you. And I get that. And I totally respect that. Like his expectation. And certainly my expectation of my team is if you’re willing to give a hundred percent of yourself and put it all on the line, I want you on my team. I want you by my side, if you’re kind of only half in half out, or you’re kind of just applique it, it’s just not the place for you. We work hard. We work fast. We’re, you know, we’re, we’re a startup, like, you know, we make very fast decisions. We go, there’s no slow time and slow period where we get to kind of kick back a little, like we are go at a hundred miles an hour every moment of every day. And I need the people around me and the rest of the team to really, you know, embrace that.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:57:29):

That’s something we could all learn from. If we’re not all in, on whatever given task or job or what we’re going after in our personal life, then I think it’s a, a reason to pause and think, okay, what am I doing here? And then where, where will, or what will I go all in on? And then, then go after that.

Jeff Lerner (00:57:47):

That’s exactly it. You got it.

Jamin Alvidrez (00:57:49):

I really appreciate that. And Jeff, I appreciate the time and everything you shared with us. I’d like to give you the final word. Where can people find you and interact with you, learn from you and, uh, any last, uh, message you’d like to leave with the people

Jeff Lerner (00:58:07):

They can find me in this house could that I haven’t been able to leave in six months, but they can certainly find me on LinkedIn, visit us at flock, freight.com. Learn more about what we’re doing in the shared truckload space. My ending is really simple, you know? And to your point in Jamie, thank you so much. It’s been a lot of fun, uh, albeit awkward at times, talking about myself, but I guess I’ll leave with, start with what I’ve done is I’ve always sat down and I’ve thought, and I’ve been a lot of cases written down what it is that I want to accomplish. What, what are my goals? Personal goals, professional goals. What are the things that are so important to me by doing that? Like it allows me as I review that similar to the book allows me to then look back and say, no, no, this was not right. And cross it off and come up with something new. But then it allowed me to make decisions based on what I put down as goals. And it gave me a sense of structure, which I needed. Otherwise I might have just kind of been all over the place, but it gave me a direction. It gave me a path and it’s yielded some great results for me personally. I guess my closing is know what you want, know what you want and work your ass off to get it. Don’t let stop you from

Jamin Alvidrez (00:59:22):

Achieving what you want to achieve. Just know what it is and go for it. And when you fail and you inevitably will fail dust yourself off, get up and keep going. I dig it. I really dig it. And you know, I’ll say the other thing I learned from you this episode go surround yourself with writer dies like your wife, who will be happy for you, even when your team beats their team. Yes. That is very true as well. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jeff. And [inaudible] and tell next time you can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, let’s chat and connect. I really appreciate all the comments and feedback because what I’m all in on is making a success of this podcast to bring you the most value. The people that are sharing the most whose mindset we can really adopt so that we can get that adapt and thrive mindset. Appreciate all of you that get AC. Woo. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. I just love learning from people’s mindsets. Well, if you enjoyed it, please like comment, share all that good stuff and Hey, sincerely, if there was something you didn’t enjoy or think we can do to improve and by we, I mean me, please let me know. I truly value your feedback and I’m so grateful that you listened until next time [inaudible].