Chris Barnes (00:06):
Hey, it’s Chris. The supply chain doctor and host of supply chain is boring. Over the years. I’ve interviewed some of the brightest minds and successful leaders in the world of supply chain management. In May, 2020. I sat down with Ken Ackerman to learn more about him and collect a little supply chain management history. After our discussion, Ken told me about a similar interview he had with Dr. James stock many years prior, and the related work Dr. Stock was doing in November, 2020. I was able to catch up with Dr. James stock to learn about his work as an academic in the field of transportation logistics. And now what we call supply chain management. Jim was well connected to many of the original academic thought leaders in the space. Jim did interviews with many of these original thought leaders and shared them with me. The list includes Ken Ackerman, Don Bauer socks, James Hasket, bud Leland, John Langley, Jr. Tom Menser, Tom SP and Daniel Ren to carry on the great work started by Dr. Jim stock. I’m dusting off these interviews and bringing them to you on supply chain is boring.
James Stock (01:14):
Good morning. My name is James stock. The Frank Harvey endowed professor of marketing at the university of south Florida, Tampa. We’re here today to conduct an interview with one of the luminaries in the academic discipline of logistics and supply chain management. The purposes of this interview are several first and perhaps foremost is to get to know the personal side of one of the leading logistics and supply chain academicians, a person who’s had significant influence on the profession. We often read the person’s books and journal articles, listen to their presentations at academic and their professional meetings, and sometimes even have individual discussions with them at, uh, various events and venues. However, we rarely get to know the person beyond the professional aspects of their careers in the field of literature and art researchers often consider the what, why, how who, and when of a particular book or painting short story poem, and so forth.
James Stock (02:11):
They speculate on, on what might have motivated the writer or the artist to write the book or to paint the painting, determine the message or the story of the text art and the writer. Artist’s perception of the contributions of their work in the same way through this and, and other interviews that will be, uh, conducted of leading business scholars. Um, as Paul Harvey, uh, has said many times, we’ll attempt to get the rest of the story. These taped interviews will hopefully serve as supporting material for various university courses where the various works of these academicians will be discussed. It will be a significant impact in courses where history and theory are being examined. Since these individuals contributed extensively to that history and theory, each interview is based on a set of structured questions using an interview guide. Of course, the interviewee’s responses are spontaneous and they may lead to other, uh, questions based upon those responses.
James Stock (03:08):
However, the general format for this and other interviews will be, that will be conducted in the future will be similar. It’s hope that audiences who view these interviews will get a broader and a richer view of the people and the events that have shaped their discipline. We hope that you learn from what will be said and discussed during these interviews and be able to more fully appreciate and understand the significant contributions made by these luminaries in the field. Let’s begin by introducing our distinguished guest, Dr. James L Hesket is presently baker foundation, professor Meredith at the graduate school of business at Harvard university in Boston, Massachusetts. Although he now resides for part of the year, uh, in Sarasota, Florida. He graduated from Ohio, Iowa state teachers college in 1954 with a major in business education obtained an MBA from Stanford university in 1958. His PhD was completed in 1960 from Stanford university where he concentrated general management, transportation, marketing, and finance.
James Stock (04:13):
His dissertation was titled industrial logistics, a movement systems concept upon graduation. Jim took a position as assistant professor at the Ohio state university in Columbus. In 1960, he remained at Ohio state until 1965 being promoted to associate professor. He joined the faculty at Harvard university in 1965 later becoming the ups foundation professor, and then the baker foundation professor during a leave from the university. Jim served as founder and president of the logistics consulting firm logistics systems, Inc. A subsidiary of the Ogden corporation altogether. Jim has been a faculty member for more than 40 years teaching and conducting research in marketing logistics, service management, general management and entrepreneurial management in recognition of his professional standing. Jim has served on the board of directors for office Depot limited brands, and INEA, he has served as consultant to numerous companies in north America, Latin America and Europe during his career, Jim has received numerous awards for his achievements, including the John jury.
James Stock (05:24):
She award now called the distinguished service award, the council of supply chain management professionals for outstanding achievement in logistics and supply chain management. He received the 1992 marketing educator of the year award from the sales and marketing executives. International Jim is also one of the early members of the national council of physical distribution management, which was the 4runner of the present day CS CMP council, supply chain management professionals. He has served as a member of the editorial boards of the international journal of physical distribution and logistics management and the international journal of service industry management, and several others. He published a large number of articles in the top business and marketing journals, including the Harvard business review, the journal marketing Sloan management review, and the California management review among others he’s coauthored or authored more than a dozen books in the areas of transportation, logistics, and services marketing.
James Stock (06:22):
He was co-authored with glass Kowski and Ivy of one of the earliest textbooks on logistics titled business logistics published by Ronald press in 1962, Jim has published extensively in the marketing arena, including books such as marketing published by McMillan publishing in 1976, logistics strategy in cases, uh, published by west publishing in 1985, service breakthroughs changing the rules of the game free press 1990, the service management course also a free press, 1991 book, corporate culture and, and performance 1992 by the free press and, uh, the value profit chain. Another free press book in 2003, his most recent book is a coauthored book entitled the ownership quotient, putting the service profit chain to work for unbeatable competitive advantage, uh, published by the Harvard business press 2008. Jim has made significant contributions to his university and the profession, his contributions in the development of HBR course materials, including cases and teaching notes are extensive during his career.
James Stock (07:29):
Jim has been involved in many executive development programs at the Harvard business school, as well as many international locations at universities and elsewhere. His articles, books and teaching materials have impacted literally thousands of students and business executives in north America and around the world throughout his career. Jim has been evaluating contributor to his university, his students, the countless businesses that have interfaced with Harvard university and to scholars throughout the globe. It’s our distinct pleasure to get to know the personal side of this man and so that we may more fully appreciate his significant professional contributions and achievements, Jim, welcome to, uh, our university. And we’ll be certainly pleased to speak with you today. It’s
James Heskett (08:15):
A real pleasure to be
James Stock (08:16):
Here. Very nice. Well, let’s start with, uh, typical questions that that is asked of a person when and where were you born?
James Heskett (08:23):
Well, I was born in 1933 in Cedar falls, Iowa. Uh, a town near where I grew up, uh, on a farm, uh, something that, uh, an experience that, uh, I enjoyed, but did not want to pursue for the rest of my life. So, uh, my ambition was to go into retailing. I had an uncle, uh, who worked for SS Kresge company back in those days. And, uh, I thought he had a great job and I was, I was planning to go into retailing after I finished college.
James Stock (09:00):
Good. Is there anything, as you were growing up on that farm that, uh, significantly shaped who you are today?
James Heskett (09:10):
Well, of course, uh, one’s parents always, uh, shaped themselves. I had a father who, uh, worked on the farm in the summer and he worked in a factory in the winter, uh, hustled the little pool on the side and, uh, managed to make ends meet. Um, and he always convinced me that, uh, you, first of all, you should always pay your own way. That was one should always pay his own way. And, uh, another thing was that you should always establish good credit, even if you move to a community, take out a loan, put it in a savings account, pay it back when it’s, uh, I want it to do and, uh, not use the money so interesting. Uh, there were a number of influences to that sort,
James Stock (09:58):
Jim. Okay. Uh, can you think of, uh, a personality trait that, uh, maybe drove you to succeed as you have done in your career?
James Heskett (10:10):
Well, I’ve always, uh, <laugh>, I’ve always wanted to pay my own way and I suppose I’ve been, uh, kind of oriented in that fashion and driven to some extent, uh, to always make sure that, uh, uh, there were, uh, productive ways of spending time in the, like, uh, maybe to the, uh, detriment of, uh, entertainment or a few other things that, uh, could be involved in.
James Stock (10:38):
Okay. Very good. If we could speak to your parents today, how do you think they would have described you as a child?
James Heskett (10:49):
How would they have described me as a child? I was an only child, so therefore, uh, I suppose they might not, not have fought quite this way, but I was a prince in some respects, uh, as only children are male children. Uh, my mother was, uh, could be very nurturing at times and not so nurturing at other times. Uh, she probably would’ve described me as, uh, you know, the pride of her life. Uh, uh, my father, um, would have liked me, I think, to spend more time on the farm, uh, and would have, uh, described me as somebody having a rather independent, uh, mindset.
James Stock (11:34):
Okay. Are there any specific childhood memories that, uh, you still have, uh, after all these years
James Heskett (11:41):
<laugh>? Oh boy. Uh, there are, there are several, uh, uh, pitching hay in a hay mile in the middle of summer in a hundred degree weather with, uh, with that wonderful, uh, uh, hay, uh, down your back, um, uh, driving tractor, things of that sort. And, uh, and as I recall, my father was an amateur pilot as well. Um, some of the most nauseating, uh, flights that I’ve ever experienced in my life.
James Stock (12:19):
Okay. Interesting. Now you mentioned, um, uh, going to college, ultimately, let’s go back a little bit earlier. Tell us about your secondary school background. And did you go to school in the Iowa area? And, and so on,
James Heskett (12:32):
I started out in a one room schoolhouse and, um, we had eight grades and, uh, the little kids sat nearest the wood stove in the back in the winter. Uh, that teacher was, uh, I’ll never forget. Sarah Schreiber was, uh, an amazing person keeping all those eight grades, uh, learning, even though she didn’t teach me to read when I should have learned, uh, then attended, uh, school in, in Cedar falls. Uh, the college town went to Cedar falls, high school where, um, I do remember some of my instructors as being, uh, uh, outstanding, uh, a science teacher, a guy named htat who, uh, was incredible a, uh, a math teacher misrate who, uh, taught me probably more math than I’ve learned in the rest of my life. And, um, uh, a in general, uh, uh, high school experience that, uh, I will never forget.
James Stock (13:42):
What was your favorite subject in secondary school?
James Heskett (13:45):
Oh, I suppose math, I think, uh, uh, algebra was always a great favorite and, uh, we studied low calculus, a few things trigonometry and things like that. Loved it.
James Stock (14:00):
Okay. And did you get involved in any sports or other kinds of extracurricular activities?
James Heskett (14:06):
Well, I wrestled, uh, being a, uh, rather slight of build at that time and not having grown until I graduated from high school. I wrestled in the 95 pound category and wrestling was something you could do if you weighed 95 pounds, you couldn’t play football, but you could wrestle and, uh, enjoyed that a lot, even though I didn’t continue in college.
James Stock (14:31):
Okay. I was a famous for wrestling. Oh,
James Heskett (14:33):
Yes. Yes.
James Stock (14:35):
Um, were you involved in any kind of, uh, school clubs or organizations?
James Heskett (14:40):
Well, I like to write and, uh, so I was, uh, on the yearbook. Uh, we had a newspaper, uh, did a lot of shows, student shows, um, both in terms of writing the shows and MCing and that kind of thing, uh, loved music. And I was beginning to, uh, play professionally while I was in high school. So, um, uh, I also played in the shows, uh, uh, saxophone, clarinet, and, um, had a, uh, very, very active existence.
James Stock (15:21):
Okay. Have you continued that, uh, clarinet and saxophone?
James Heskett (15:24):
Well, I I’ve continued the interest in music. I actually worked my way through college playing in a variety of professionally in a variety of bands and the like, uh, traveled around the Midwest a bit, uh, which didn’t help my school, uh, work. Um, and, uh, but shortly thereafter went to the army and since then, I’ve never played, uh, professionally, but still carry the instrument around. And as a matter of fact, in the last year or two I’m, I’ve started for the first time taking piano lessons. Ah, so very nice. Uh, something you can do, uh, uh, in your semi-retirement.
James Stock (16:08):
Ah, very good. Did you participate in any form of the student government, uh, while you were in, uh, secondary school and high school,
James Heskett (16:15):
Especially? Uh, I, I suspect I did. I, I can’t remember accurately, but I, I was involved in the, uh, sort of the government structure.
James Stock (16:26):
Yes. Now you mentioned a few teachers science and math. Uh, was there one specific teacher that probably had the most influence on you?
James Heskett (16:37):
Well, throughout that whole time, yes. Um, certainly, uh, the, uh, teacher who taught me to read, uh, that was, that was an important thing I didn’t learn to read until I was, uh, well along. I think it was second or third grade. I don’t remember exactly. I had memorized up until that point and had, uh, managed to get by doing that. But Ms. Bartlet was a, a woman who taught me to read, uh, but in, in high school, I think, uh, my math teacher was probably as influential as any, um, in the sense that she was stern, um, not very forgiving, but she had just the right kind of discipline to teach math and, uh, and we all liked
James Stock (17:27):
Her. Good. How would you describe yourself as a student? Uh, both academically and socially?
James Heskett (17:36):
Well, um, uh, particularly in college, uh, I was involved in, uh, a variety of activities, as I say, I, I was, uh, working professionally as a musician. I got a job, uh, managing a dairy queen, which I did for one or two years all at the same time. So I was trying to hold down these two jobs, uh, wanted to, to pursue a pre-med, uh, course, um, but was unable to sustain the work, uh, particularly chemistry and, uh, that kind of activity, um, moved to math, uh, had, uh, had trouble keeping up with my math homework, um, uh, was advised that perhaps a music major would be, uh, more appropriate, uh, for which I needed to learn how to play the piano, which I was unable to do in the time that I had available and ended up getting a degree in business education as, uh, almost a last resort, uh, after all of that other, uh, activities. So I suppose in college, I’d have to say I was not a good student, um, mainly because, uh, I was involved in too many activities.
James Stock (19:02):
Okay. Now, prior to college in secondary school, did you, uh, receive any specific honors or awards, uh, through wrestling or playing or, uh, any of those things that you
James Heskett (19:15):
Were involved in? Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure I got some awards for, for music. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, more, more so than wrestling, uh, um, uh, and, uh, and I had the usual recognition for the journalism that I was involved in, but, uh, none that really stand out in my mind. I later, uh, from my Alma mater, I was day two modern Iowa state teachers college, which today is the university of Northern Iowa. I later did receive the, uh, receive a distinguished alumni award, uh, which to me seemed a bit ironic given the academic experience I had had when I was on campus.
James Stock (20:01):
Interesting. Now usually when people are growing up, uh, they have somebody either in entertainment or government business somewhere, uh, that is that’s, that’s my, that’s the person I’d like to be like, did you have anyone like that, uh, while you were in secondary school prior to college?
James Heskett (20:21):
Well, I suppose, uh, during that period of time, uh, my uncle, the uncle that I mentioned earlier, uh, was someone of that sort, um, he would, he was a regional vice president of this, uh, variety store chain. And he would take me on store visits with him. Uh, he walked through the store with a manager, uh, trailing behind, uh, taking notes as he pointed out all the things that needed to be done. And then as we got to the end of the, uh, visit he’d stop at the front counter and buy me a package of gum or something like that. And, uh, for somebody like me, uh, that was about as good as I thought it could get. Huh. Okay. So, and he was a, a, a, a very, uh, vital, uh, person as well, um, and, and a, uh, very outgoing person. So he was, uh, in terms of personality, he was very much a role model as well.
James Stock (21:29):
Okay. Very good. Is there anything that, uh, people would find very surprising about you, uh, that perhaps you did or were involved in, uh, when you were in high school or perhaps even earlier in, in, uh,
James Heskett (21:47):
Well, I perhaps perhaps the music side, uh, that’s not something that, uh, uh,
James Heskett (21:56):
Has I’ve played up or even mentioned, uh, perhaps in other, in other discussions. Um, the, uh, uh, I played, uh, in a variety of groups, um, I suppose entertained briefly the possibility of becoming a professional musician, um, until common sense, uh, got the better of me, but, uh, we traveled, um, a bit, um, played in some pretty rough spots and, uh, um, Galesburg, Illinois was the roughest I think I ever experienced, but, uh, and, um, nevertheless I think, uh, was shaped by that experience, uh, in terms of, uh, I suppose, uh, uh, developing a little more worldly view than a, than a kid who grew up on the farm would otherwise have.
James Stock (22:55):
All right. Now you had mentioned, uh, going to, to college, uh, now university of Northern Iowa mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, were your parents supportive of you going to college and you mentioned, uh, uh, you CA here holding down several jobs while you were in school. Um, yeah. Tell us how you decided to go there.
James Heskett (23:16):
Sure. Uh, well, there was never any question in the family about whether I was gonna go to college or not. I don’t recall ever having, uh, really played a part in that decision. Uh, I think it was always assumed that, that I was going to go to college. My parents had between them, uh, one year of college, my mother went to college for a year. Uh, my father hadn’t graduated from high school, so, uh, they both viewed college as a very important, uh, thing. On the other hand, they didn’t have a lot of money to send me to college. So, uh, in a sense, I received the, uh, uh, the responsibility, uh, in a way without the <laugh> without necessarily the means to pay for it all. So, uh, that perhaps explains why many of us went to college, three miles away from home. Uh, I lived at home for the first year, and then I moved on campus and, uh, uh, or off campus, just off campus, uh, in a rooming house.
James Heskett (24:21):
And, um, that too was probably a more important part of my education than, um, than anything else. Cuz I lived with basically with the football team <laugh>, uh, and observed, uh, what went, what went on with, uh, a fairly, uh, high profile group of, uh, people on the campus. Uh, but it all in all, uh, there was never a question about college. I, I was to go to college, graduate school was something else. My, I, I doubt that my parents ever really understood what I did after I graduated from college, other than going into the army. They may have understood that, but
James Stock (25:05):
Okay, so you, um, moved from home to a roomy house by campus after the first year. Uh, did you belong to any, uh, fraternities while you were there?
James Heskett (25:15):
I, I belonged to, uh, Sigma TA gamma fraternity. I was not a, um, and we didn’t have a house, so, uh, that didn’t solve my housing problems, uh, was probably never the most active fraternity member, but, um, uh, enjoyed the, uh, sort of the fellowship that went with it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, without the living experience that goes with a lot of fraternities, this was fraternity light. This campus didn’t have, uh, fraternity and sorority houses.
James Stock (25:52):
Can you think of ways that that experience as a undergraduate student impacted or influenced you to go on for a, a master’s and then later a PhD?
James Heskett (26:05):
Well, actually I had no intent of going on, uh, but there were some experiences during, uh, those undergraduate days that really did, um, uh, perhaps plant some seeds. Uh, those were the days of the, of McCarthy and, uh, McCarthy, um, uh, ism, I suppose you’d call it, uh, actually led to the, um, dismissal of several faculty members at, at the university. Um, some that were, uh, quite well known or, or, or well liked. Uh, I didn’t happen to know any of those people, but that spurred a lot of conversation and discussion among students, pro con what have you. And I began hanging out with a group that used to get together at, at, uh, at the home of someone, uh, the only member of the group that actually had a, uh, uh, a place like that, uh, large enough. And you could drop in, I remember any hour of the day or night and you’d find a group in discussion, um, about anything, uh, under the sun. And for some reason that really did influence me. Uh, I took my girlfriend, uh, to this place once and she, as my wife, uh, has told me several times that she had never experienced anything like that in college and was one of the things that sort of intrigued her about me. So <laugh>, I, I suppose that was, uh, that was an influence. I didn’t realize it at the time
James Stock (28:01):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, in terms of, um, your college experience and you had not anticipated nor your parents going on beyond that, what was the, the, uh, triggering mechanism to get you to go on for the advanced degrees?
James Heskett (28:17):
Well, uh, ironically, it was the fact that we had a draft in the United States. At that time, I knew I had to go to the service. Uh, I was not reluctant to go, but I didn’t want to spend any more time than I, uh, then I had to. And at that time, if you enlisted, it was a three year tour of duty, and if you were drafted, it was two. So I, uh, made sure that I got drafted in a timely way shortly after college. And I believe by July 4th, I was on my way, uh, to Arkansas. Um, and the reason that the army was the trigger point was that I had a buddy in the army that I had, uh, met in basic training. And we kept in touch after we were, uh, transferred to Europe. And, uh, he asked me what I was going to do after I got out of the army.
James Heskett (29:20):
And I said, uh, I’m going into retailing. That’s my dream. And he said, uh, well, you know, after he said, after you get your MBA, I said, no, no, I’m, I don’t have any intention to get an MBA. And he said, well, you’re absolutely out of your mind. He said, uh, uh, surely you’re gonna want an MBA. Uh, he said, I, uh, there’s only one school and being from Southern California for him, that school was Stanford. He said, uh, I’ve put in my application for Stanford and I’ve got an app, extra application right here, and I want you to sit down and I want you to over the next couple of nights, I want you to fill out that application and send it in. Well, almost on a Lark. I filled out the application, um, to make a long story short. Um, probably because I was from Iowa and he was from California. Um, I was admitted and he wasn’t, and, uh, it’s something we’ve talked about for years. He passed away, not too long ago, but we, one of the last things we discussed was that, uh, experience of my getting in and his not, he went on to become CEO of Catalina swimwear, so he didn’t do too badly, but, um, in that way, the army really was that first step toward graduate school, graduate education. Okay.
James Stock (30:58):
Interesting. Um, in that MBA program, and we’ll get back to your military experience in a moment, but when you finally went to the MBA, uh, program at Stanford, um, after having been in the, uh, uh, Northern Iowa, uh, curriculum and sort of moved around across various areas of interest, um, what made you choose the, the area of business that, uh, you probably concentrated on during that MBA?
James Heskett (31:31):
Well, I, uh, when I arrived on campus, uh, I had no money and, uh, no job I had, uh, a couple of months left in the summer. I did gardening work. I carried out groceries and, uh, saw a notice, uh, for a secretary’s job for, uh, a professor named Gaton Jermaine, who was the director of something called the transportation management program at Stanford, having, uh, trained in the army to be a, uh, a stenographer of all things, uh, in a CRI criminal investigation detachment, uh, uh, he being a military person thought that this might be a great, uh, a great choice. So he interest selected me for the job. Uh, naturally I became familiar with what he was doing in the field of transportation, uh, which influenced what I began to study and, uh, and ultimately with his encouragement, what I, uh, investigated during my doctoral work as well.
James Heskett (32:53):
Interesting. Now, back to the military, were you getting GI bill while you were going to Stanford? Absolutely. Absolutely. Without that GI bill <laugh>, I wouldn’t have been going to Stanford <laugh> there you go. Um, so when you were in the, uh, the military, um, what rank did you achieve while you were there? I assume you, when is listed since you were drafted. Yes. Um, yes. And how did you get into that, uh, sort of stenographer’s position in the military <laugh> well being a draftee, uh, there are many unusual stories about how you end up, uh, doing what you do. Um, uh, the, uh, uh, my, uh, I guess my ambition was to play in the army band. And so, uh, during basic training, I auditioned and was accepted. I, that was no problem, uh, having played professionally, uh, I was ready, uh, but you can be ready in the army.
James Heskett (33:56):
And if there are no openings, uh, during the particular week in which you, uh, matriculate from basic training, uh, you can find yourself in a totally different, uh, kind of occupation. So very quickly <laugh> I found myself, uh, in what was known as clerk, typist school, I believe, and, uh, did so well in clerk typist school that I was sent on to the stenographers, uh, uh, adjective general school in, uh, Indianapolis, which was a, a nice long program, uh, where we learned, uh, stenographic skills that I have never used since I’m, uh, I’m a Wiz at Greg shorthand, or at least was at the time I came outta the army. Um, the, uh, uh, as a result, I didn’t aspire to rank. And I think I came out as what was known then as an S P three, which is probably the equivalent of a corporal, uh, one rank above, uh, the rank at which I was, uh, that I received when I was drafted.
Chris Barnes (35:08):
Supply chain is boring as part of the supply chain. Now network the voice of supply chain, interested in sponsoring this show to help get your message out, send a note to Chris at the SC Dr. Dot com. We can also help with world class supply chain, education and certification workshops for you or your team. Thanks for listening. And remember, supply chain is boring.