To me, customer experience is not the responsibility of a single department. It is a culture of accountability that requires vision, leadership, and investment in a company-wide competency.
- Helen Yu, CEO of Tigon Advisory Corporation
Episode Summary
All professionals should aspire to continue learning throughout their careers. While this is easy to agree to, it is tough to stay committed given the demands of most people’s work and personal lives.
Helen Yu is the CEO of Tigon Advisory Corp., host of the CXO Spice podcast, a Wall Street Journal best-selling author, and an expert in digital transformation and cyber security. She has gone through several pivots in her career, and each one was made possible because she kept her commitment to continuous learning, remaining open to trying new things.
In this conversation, Helen and Scott discuss:
• Her observations and expectations for the manufacturing industry as we move into 2023
• The critical milestones she has seen AI achieve to this point, and the role it is playing in the manufacturing renaissance that is currently underway
• How the concept of ‘customer experience’ has been misunderstood and the power associated with it when executed well
Episode Transcript
Intro/Outro (00:03):
Welcome to Supply Chain. Now the voice of global supply chain Supply chain now focuses on the best in the business for our worldwide audience, the people, the technologies, the best practices, and today’s critical issues, the challenges and opportunities. Stay tuned to hear from Those Making Global Business happen right here on supply chain now.
Scott Luton (00:32):
Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are. Scott Luton here with you at Supply Chain. Now welcome to today’s episode. Now we’ve got an outstanding episode. Today we’re gonna be talking with an industry di uh, dynamo and business leader that is an expert when it comes to digital transformation, cyber security, and a whole lot more. And our guest might just love the manufacturing industry as much as I do. So with that said, I wanna welcome in my friend Helen u, CEO at Tag Advisory Corporation. Helen, how you doing?
Helen Yu (01:02):
Hi, Scott. I’m doing fantastic. Thank you for having me here today. How are you doing?
Scott Luton (01:08):
Uh, I’m doing great. You know, I, we have long admired you and what you’ve done from afar. I think we’ve had the opportunity to collaborate on, on a couple of projects with some, uh, leading technology platforms out there. But I love your perspective and expertise and I can’t wait to share it with, uh, our global, uh, sc and fam as we call it around here.
Helen Yu (01:27):
Thank you, Scott. Likewise. I really admire your work as well.
Scott Luton (01:31):
Well, um, so I appreciate that. I wanna dive in, Helen, on the front end. Um, I’ll usually like to kind of get to know our guests a little bit better, uh, especially folks that may not have had the, um, the opportunity to, um, engage with you and check out all of your content and thought leadership out there. So let’s start with this. Tell us what part of the world did you grow up in Helen?
Helen Yu (01:53):
Well, there are two parts of my childhood. Very early on, I grew up in Chenin, so that’s a city 75 miles southeast of Beijing. That’s the capital of China. China. And then I moved to Beijing as soon as I started elementary school. But I actually grow up, grew up among eight other boys, right. My cousins and my brother. And, uh, I was raised, uh, I was the youngest and only girl, and it was a tremendous experience. Uh, so professionally I actually grew up in the tech world.
Scott Luton (02:27):
Okay. Well, so tell us back to that, um, being the youngest and the only, uh, female and having, uh, eight brothers to, I bet you beat up on them. Is that how that worked, Helen?
Helen Yu (02:38):
Well, I learned how to survive. That’s the, put that
Scott Luton (02:42):
<laugh>. Wonderful. Well, well let me ask you, um, cuz we we’re about to go, uh, kind of how, uh, uh, how the, the tech world kind of shaped your journey, but they’re growing up in those two wonderful Chinese cities, the second one being Beijing. What, um, what activities as a kid did you really enjoy? Whether it’s a game or, or, um, you know, what y’all did together, you and your brothers and cousins, what was a big part of your childhood?
Helen Yu (03:09):
Well, being raised by my grandmother, the most enjoyable moments were the time we had to make our own toys, right. At the time we were not really wealthy, so we have to make everything, for example, making paper airplanes or, you know, playing with kits or making, you know, using the wood piece of wood to make things out of it. Like little toy. We didn’t have Legos at the time, unfortunately, but I, we were all very hands on chasing each other and running around. As a matter of fact, I run really fast and they had to put me in the groups with boys because of the way I grew up. Because we run, I I run away all the time growing up <laugh>. Yes. And then the second part of my favorite verbal part was to listening to story every evening, uh, my grandmother, we all, you know, sleep on the same big wooden bed. And then I would curl claw up to curl up to my grandmother, and she would tell one story every single night. And they’re always a, what’s the mor moral of the story? I was always the one who listened the bus. Right? I was able to listen to it and translate that into something meaningful for me. So to this date, I still remember all the stories she, she really shared, um, man, when I was growing off
Scott Luton (04:30):
That such a special time, I much like you, I revered, uh, my, all of my grandparents and, um, really, uh, cherished those times we spent together. Now it sounds like, um, Helen, not only were you, uh, fast in general, you were a fast learner and able to take those stories and apply them later in your journey. Um, I appreciate you sharing that. Let’s, let’s talk, let’s switch gears and let’s talk more about your professional journey. I think you were about to share there that you, uh, that the tech world really shaped a lot of who you are and, and what you’ve done in your career. Tell us about a couple of positions that really shaped your leadership and your worldview, Helen.
Helen Yu (05:07):
Sure. Well, instead of talking about my position, let me talk about the two pivots I made in my career. The first pivot, pivot was from a encounter to a being grower. I actually started my career as an accountant and financial analyst, and I learned to code as a Hyperion consultant and one talented design and implement hundreds of financial planning applications working alongside the CFOs and CIOs. So my financial background, self-taught technical skills and consulting experience enabled me to pivot to a bean grower later on
Scott Luton (05:45):
The second. Hey, really quick, Helen, if I can ask, um, that, that requires, and I love how you put it there, from a bean counter to a bean grower that required that pivot required a ton of courage and probably willingness to take that leap. Yes. Where’d you find that inner strength?
Helen Yu (06:02):
So, the inner strength is really comes from how I was raised by my grandmother, right? You have to be able to step out your comfort zone constantly knowing that you are not the best at everything you do, and be willing to be a beginner for everything, right? So the curiosity is out there really for me. You know, in order for you to become the best, you have to take yourself out of being the best and being the newest, uh, being the learner. And that’s really the how I was able to pivot. And then understanding that, you know, there’s, it is a journey. Being the, you know, really being the best may not be the goal, but the, it’s a journey for you to learn and grow. And to me it’s like learn and, and grow learning and growing also are all the inter, inter interchangeable, um, in my entire career.
Helen Yu (06:57):
And the second pivot I made was from a business executive to an entrepreneur, right? Think about, I run the Oracle BI consulting practice, post-acquisition. And then, uh, at the time, uh, Keith Block was e v P of sales. So under his tooth large, I learned the nuances of enterprise solution sales at Oracle. So I then learned marketing and SaaS at Adobe and successfully really led the startup to scale up challenge at Marketo. So my journey led me to recognize the critical gap patterns in growth driven technology startups that prompt me to become an entrepreneur. So the these two really pivot, enable me to become a servant leader and curious, courageous multiplier.
Scott Luton (07:43):
Um, you’re talking my language on so many levels, how much time you got, Helen, I’d love to die, <laugh>, we’re gonna take next three hours. What incredible powerful pivots. And you know, one of the things that really stuck out, uh, uh, stood out to me as you were sharing both of those, um, was just how much of a constant learner that you are you, it’s like you soak up new, new knowledge by the hour. Is that, is that accurate?
Helen Yu (08:08):
I really, I’m a learner. I say life learner or I always like gravitate to the new things. And then really, you know, anything I read constantly, I talk to people all the time and, and just, that’s, uh, that’s kind of what I do as a natural or a naturally on a daily basis.
Scott Luton (08:31):
Well, uh, Helen, you’re gonna inspire a, as you already do, but you’re gonna inspire a lot of our listeners with what you’ve already shared. Uh, and I bet you agree there’s no finish line when it comes to learning and learning new things, professional development, new challenges, especially as I know you can relate in, uh, as an entrepreneur. Um, so I want to pivot this interview, <laugh>, uh, um, let’s talk about, there’s, there’s three topics I’d love for you to kind of weigh in with your expertise. And the first of them, you and I both are, uh, big fans of the manufacturing industry. Um, so starting there as we approach the new year, uh, hard to believe 2023 is just, uh, two weeks around the corner. Um, what are some of your manufacturing industry observations as we move into the new year?
Helen Yu (09:16):
That’s a great question, Scott. There are two, uh, let me share two observations. Number one is, you know, with inflation supply chain disruptions and geopolitical conflicts, we’re going through a renaissance manufacturing in the us AI in smart manufacturing, iot, ot, going to be the front and center of the competitive and sustainable advantage. In this new era, I expect to see waves breakthrough innovations throughout the supply chain and manufacturing processes. Number two, you know, the labor store, uh, shortage remains a top challenge. I wrote, wrote about that recently there will be 2.1 million unfilled jobs in manufacture by 2030, an automation and autonomous machinery will be inevitable. So, you know, to me there will be massive opportunities for innovation and transformation for manufacturing.
Scott Luton (10:15):
Agreed. And, and I, I enjoyed, so listeners, if you have not connected or or follow, Helen, you we’re gonna have, make sure her social, uh, media profile is really easy. One click away in the episode notes. But, um, I loved your, uh, perspective on, uh, man manufacturing talent shifts, both the challenges and how companies are reinventing, uh, how they address it in many ways. And, uh, you mentioned AI on the front part of your answer. Um, I really enjoyed you if I get this right. And, and Helen, please correct me. You kind of laid out a timeline, uh, kind of in, in some ways showing critical milestones of how AI has advanced over the years. I love that. I’m a big business history nerd as well. Um, but you’ve shown it, it continues to evolve and lea and make big leaps ahead. Speak to, um, kind of how you’ve seen it evolve, uh, via that, uh, perspective you shared.
Helen Yu (11:10):
Well, I actually started deploying AI since five years ago, right, at the biggest global banks. And I, uh, happened to start working with this AI company, uh, as a conversational AI company. So, uh, really getting my hands on AI taught me, um, to, to really understand, right? You know, when it comes to ai, we all know data is so critical, right? But then you cannot ignore the, the, the factors important factor of be, you know, trust, right? It is the psychological impact on human is really gonna play a major role, continue to play a major role. You think about how we’ve evolved, right, from just computer programming to now human-like response from the chat, G P t when it comes to ai, it’s fascinating to see how much we have evolved in the past, even 10 years, massive, um, improvement or massive evolution. So to me, you know, especially when it comes to manufacturing, we talk about, you know, it’s really, we’re gonna have a lot more breakthroughs in the next even five years or even two to three years.
Scott Luton (12:23):
Uh, I’m with you. I I maybe, uh, next two to three months, it feels like at times. Um, hey, speaking of ai and, and we’re gonna switch over, uh, to customer experience in a minute. Get some of your thoughts there. Um, there’s a great movie, uh, and I, I’ve, uh, to our listeners, you’ve probably heard me, uh, talk about this before. It’s called her h e r, and it, you know, what I’m talking about came out like in two, 2013. And, uh, have you seen this movie as well, Helen?
Helen Yu (12:48):
Isn’t that twice? Oh, really enjoyed it.
Scott Luton (12:52):
Me too. It really is so fascinating, especially, and I’m not, not ruin the ending for everybody here, but how, where that ends, especially in the last 30 minutes or so of the movie, man, it’ll, it’ll leave you, uh, if you watch it in the theater, watch it at home, whatever, it’s gonna leave your mind racing with all kinds of questions in terms of the art of the possibles. That that’s what, uh, uh, that’s what it did for me. Helen, you.
Helen Yu (13:15):
Yeah. You know, believe it or not, we all live in the world where we have, you know, either Siri or, you know, uh, Alexa or Google Home or Apple Home, right? We all live in the world without noticing that we’re dealing with her or him, uh, at home constantly. And I think I’m gonna see more of those happening, uh, in the coming years.
Scott Luton (13:39):
I agree. I agree. Um, uh, all right, so I gotta leave. There’s a thousand questions I love to pose to you about ai, but for the sake of time, I move into one of one of the other things that you’re a big fan of and, and an expert, uh, thought leader around customer experience, right? It’s a, it’s, uh, really interesting how the formal practice of, of cx, uh, has really, you know, business leaders are looking forward it everywhere and, and how-to guides of how to really, um, elevate the whole customer experience. So what do you, um, any thoughts about how do you see this customer experience, uh, space evolve?
Helen Yu (14:14):
Well, having been a C-suite executive in customer experience over the years, I’m really passionate about this topic. Um, that’s being said, there has been quite a bit of misconception when it comes to customer experience. So let’s first get aligned on what exactly it is. Customer experience to me is not responsibility of a single department. It is a culture of accountability that requires vision, leadership, and investment in a company-wide competency, right? And for companies to master customer experience, they have to build overarching competency. And then, and also B2B customer experience can be very complex. It is important to understand your customers. What that means is that you have to know what is their perceived value on your product and services. Why did they invest in you in the first place? And then you gotta have a active listening pass to constantly understand what they’re talking about you when you’re not in the room, right?
Helen Yu (15:18):
And then also, you know, providing that consistent, reliable experience is much more appreciated than something, you know, out of the blue surprise, right? And then I also learned that customer loyalty is really fragile. And brands, you know, the brands’ employee experience will have a direct impact on their brand reputation and the correlation on that, on the customer loyalty, right? Some of the recent events, you can tell already, people decide to leave you. If you don’t, your employees are not being treated fairly. And because people have a choice or companies have a choice to decide who they wanna work with. So that shared value between you and your target customers or brands are super important for you to understand.
Scott Luton (16:06):
You, we could talk about this for hours. Uh, uh, I love, um, uh, how you started with talking about how it’s not a single individual’s responsibility, it’s all the team members in, in terms of optimize, optimizing and protecting the customer experience. And then also, I, I love how one, one of the things you shared there is, uh, customers, they care about all certain, uh, all, all sorts of types of their experience, including, as you mentioned, how these big brands, well, big and small brands take care of their own team members. Uh, that’s a great call out. I, one quick follow up question, and then we’re gonna move to, um, uh, talking a little more leadership. Do you see in this omnichannel digital commerce world, you know, era, we’re, we’re moving in, uh, we’re already in <laugh> and, and evolving in, do you see that as, uh, more challenging to protect that customer experience? Or do you see it kind of on the other side of the spectrum where it opens up new doors of wowing the customer? What’s your take there?
Helen Yu (17:06):
Well, I always see that as an opportunity, right? I think this is the time, especially when, you know, the, you know, with the current economy, those are the time for the, the companies to really do something different and re re revisit, reset, right? What they’re doing, and then reflect and then really emerge as a leader in driving better customer experience. Tons of opportunities out there with a technology advancement, with talents being available, right? Some of the talent being more available due to the tech layoffs. This is a moment to seize the opportunity and then become a better leader in, in the marketplace.
Scott Luton (17:47):
Yeah, well said. I love that, that, uh, the glass certainly, uh, half full. Uh, I love that. Um, okay, so let’s talk leadership. You know, that’s that overarching topic. It, it, it’s related to everything. Uh, um, at least that’s how I look at it. Um, so you may be like me, Helen. Uh, I’m a regular student of leadership practices as a, as an entrepreneur, as a business leader, and just as a, as a leadership nerd, I’ll call it. So if, if you were speaking to, um, uh, let’s call it, uh, uh, thousands of college students or high school students that are about to graduate and enter the world, and they want to, they want to do big things like, like you’ve done Helen, uh, and of course that requires great leadership skills. What’s a couple of critical, uh, leadership practices that you would, uh, share with
Helen Yu (18:37):
Them? So I would share three things. Uh, the first one is being present. It’s really important for any, any of us to be present, whatever we’re doing, either making a presentation or, um, really interact with a friend or a colleague. So the ability to focus on something right when they’re in the moment, focus on that intensely and the ability to collect the information you needed and then make decision, uh, in that real time. So that to me is number one, no matter what you are doing, um, what major you select in what field you are in, this is really a very important skill for any leader or anybody. Number two is the ability to think out of the box, right? You think about, we all have, sometimes we’re innovative with, I would say, seeing the forest not only to to be in the trees, but also step out of the trees to see the forest.
Helen Yu (19:36):
The ability to do that is really help you to see the bigger picture rather than just focus on all the things, you know, that bothers you. And to me, it’s like, forget about the to do list. Think about the to be list, right? Ah, what you wanna be. Love that as a human. And, and then the third way is to go explore life, disconnect, right? Once in a while and get lost in nature, in life, in whatever hobby you decide to do or in a book. So to me, as a human being, no one wants to interact with someone. All you talk about is one thing, right? You people wanna interact with someone who is interesting, who has more breadth of experience, and then they can learn from, think about it. Like for example, when I work with companies, I do a lot of research.
Helen Yu (20:28):
I get to know what they’re, they, what perceived the value, and then if they like horse, I’m gonna go learn about horse riding, right? Right. I mean, you have to really understand the human, at the end of the day, the interaction is about the human interaction and what matters to Scott, for example, right? And then, so that’s very important to know. And no matter what you do in the what field you’re in, you have to really learn to understand what matters. The value, perceived value is from the person you are interact with, and always add that value. And another do that. You have to disconnect and explore, learn more beyond what you are doing and what your degrees, um, taught you,
Scott Luton (21:12):
Man. Um, we could talk leadership as well. We’re gonna have to book, we’re gonna have to book, uh, more time together. Helen, um, I love where you started about being present because, um, it’s ever more challenging in this, you know, with everything, uh, texts, social emails, unit, whatever, at our fingertips, it’s easy to be distracted. Uh, and, uh, I think the best people I’ve ever worked for and worked with have that ability to your point of being present in the moment and, and making you feel important and what you’re sharing with them being important in their priority. The other thing you maybe think of is, um, um, not making assumptions, right with your, your, uh, second point there, you know, kind of thinking outside the box. We all assume as humans, we all assume so much. And I think one of the dangerous assumptions we can make in business is how we think things work. And sometimes you gotta call Tom out and, you know, value stream, map out things, or just have conversations with different functional areas of the business to really blow away those assumptions so that you can really make things easier and more successful for all members of the team, right?
Helen Yu (22:21):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Scott Luton (22:23):
Okay. So, uh, Helen, I appreciate your expertise and perspective on manufacturing, customer experience and leadership. And we’re gonna have a, we’re gonna have a sequel to, to, to, uh, today’s conversation. Um, I want to, um, you’re, you’ve got so much going on, I wanna level set with, uh, where you are serve as CEO o at TAG Advisory Corps. So tell us what does that business do?
Helen Yu (22:47):
Yeah, I actually started a TAG advisory as a growth accelerator, uh, five years ago. And then during pandemic, I pivoted to guiding organiz organizations through digital transformation, strategic planning, cybersecurity risk management, go to market optimization and influencer marketing. I’m also a host with CXO Spice podcast, and that’s a platform for industry thought leaders to share their perspective on innovation and how to make it real.
Scott Luton (23:19):
So, um, Anne, I love your reg. Uh, first off, uh, I like all of your various content, you know, um, uh, it really, uh, it stops and makes you think, uh, that’s one of my, one of your, uh, attributes I love the most. Uh, what is the name of the LinkedIn newsletter that you put out? Uh, LinkedIn articles you put out regularly?
Helen Yu (23:40):
Yeah, it’s called CXO News. Uh, CXO Spice Newsletter. The reason I name it CX O Spice, because the target audience is CX o, they’re the decision makers. Spice has a meaning, right? Uh, s I mean, name is inspired by Iron M my favorite, uh, Marvel. Um, so s is really the, uh, scenario or scope of the discussion. And then p stands for point of view and then I is, um, really represents innovation. Uh, C is for C, X O and then E is execution to how you make it happen in real world.
Scott Luton (24:19):
I love that. I never knew his acronym, uh, <laugh>. I thought it was about the, the spicy nature of the conversations and the hot takes. So I love we we love our acronyms around here, uh, in the world of supply chain. Um, alright, so folks gotta check that out. Uh, check out the podcast. And then the other thing I wanna suggest to people, cause I’ve got two copies of your book, uh, on the way to it to me now, and your book was entitled, ascend Your Startup, conquer The Five Disconnects to Accelerate Growth. And it’s been really well received. It has won awards at, uh, the New York Book Festival. It’s been a Wall Street Journal bestseller even, and I’m probably even leaving some out. So clearly it’s resonated with the market. Tell us, um, Helen, what was your why of writing this book?
Helen Yu (25:06):
Well, the why behind a Sunday Mount a space camp was to keep a secret promise to my grandmother, and I was leave her ashes on a tall mountain. I was raised by grandmother, and before she passed away, she said three things to me. Stay special, make the world proud, and spread my ashes to a tall mountain. So grandmother was my world, right? She always give and never ask anything from others. So writing this book is to honor the great and resilience grandma taught growing up and honor the great resilience it takes to scale a startup.
Scott Luton (25:46):
Um, man, uh, and to honor her wishes and, and to share, um, her love for others by helping others through, uh, all the different ways, your book, your podcast, all of your content, uh, your advisory services that you do. I bet she is extremely proud. And, uh, and you know what, Helen, the way I look at it is we’re all just getting started, right? We’re all just getting started. There’s so much more to come. Um, alright, so folks, um, if you wanted, so Helen, folks wanna connect with you. Maybe they wanna, um, uh, work with you, collaborate with you, have you come in as a keynote. I know youll do a lot of keying, uh, a lot of different content. What’s the easiest way for folks to connect with you?
Helen Yu (26:28):
Well, thank you, uh, Scott. I mean, they can always find me through LinkedIn. Uh, as you we mentioned earlier, I publish weekly CXO Spice Newsletter on LinkedIn. They can also find me on Twitter. My handler is Y u uh, Helen, Y u and then I also have a CXO Spice YouTube channel. They can, you know, Google, CXO Spice, Helen New, it will pop up. I also have my personal website, tag advisory.com. By the way, I launched my books through N F T version as well. So if they want a copy of my book with Autograph, they can DM me. Uh, you know, they can purchase a book from me directly or through Amazon, or they can go to the website to even grab a copy of M N F T. So there are a lot of o uh, options out there.
Scott Luton (27:20):
It’s everywhere. It’s taking over the book scene and I can’t wait to read it. Uh, and then again, folks, that was a send your startup conquer the five disconnects to accelerate growth. Um, Helen, as I suspected, um, you know, 30 minutes or so, whatever the recording time is here doesn’t do you justice and doesn’t do your journey justice, but I’m so glad that you’re able to carve out some time and spend, uh, with us and, and share your expertise and thought leadership and perspective, including those two big pivots with our global audience. Thank you so much, Helen, U C E O at, uh, tigon Advisory Corporation.
Helen Yu (27:56):
Thank you for having me, Scott.
Scott Luton (27:59):
All right, folks, man, uh, I know about you, but I’m ready to run through the wall back behind me. I love Helen’s journey. I love how she’s shared it and really centered a lot of, a lot of what she does around those critical lessons learned, spending time with, with, uh, her family, all the brothers and cousins, but especially her grandmother. That really resonates with me. Uh, folks, hopefully you enjoy this episode. Be sure to find supply chain now, wherever you get your podcast from, subscribe, you don’t miss anything like this with, uh, this episode with, uh, Helen u You can finance on YouTube. Hey, as, as Helen mentioned, that’s the easy place to engage in content. Uh, add your comments, you name it. On behalf of our entire team here at Supply Chain now, hey Scott Luton challenging you to do good, to give forward and to be the change, be like Helen u. And with that said, we next time right back here at Supply Chain now. Thanks everybody.
Intro/Outro (28:47):
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Helen Yu is the founder and CEO of TigonAdvisory; Host of CXO Spice podcast and a wall-street journal best-selling author. She drives growth for tech companies from start-ups to global titans like Oracle and Adobe, and helps CEOs achieve multibillion-dollar revenue growth and record profitability. She’s a board advisor to fast-growth SaaS companies and is on the board of the Global Cybersecurity Association. She is named as top 50 women in Tech by Award Magazine and was ranked a Top 30 thought leader by Thinkers 360, and a top 10 digital transformation influencer by IBM. Her CXO Spice podcast was named top 70 podcast you should listen to in 2022 by Thinkers360. She’s spoken at SXSW, TiECon, DMS, Money20/20 and NAMIC. An avid adventurer who trekked to Mt. Everest base camp and ice climbed glaciers, her book Ascend Your Start-up: Conquer the 5 Disconnects to Accelerate Growth won first place in business category at New York book festival and firebird award in addition to wall street journal best seller. You can subscribe to her weekly #CXOSpice newsletter https://lnkd.in/gBpfAfxt or subscribe to #CXOSpice podcastYouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/HelenYu. You can also follow her on Twitter at @YuHelenYu. Or follow Tigon Advisory at https://tigonadvisory.com/ Connect with Helen on LinkedIn.
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