[00:00:00] Abe Eshkenazi: AI is only as good as the data that’s feeding it. It’s historical. It does not create data. It uses data that’s historical to the organization. Unfortunately, most of the companies that we’re working with, and we’ve all seen this, on fragmented data across different ERP systems.

[00:00:15] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, your suppliers are not connected, your logistics providers may or may not be, you know, sharing information, legacy platforms. Um, you can layer on sophisticated AI over bad data and expect good decisions. I don’t think that’s gonna happen 

[00:00:29] Abe Eshkenazi: today. ​

[00:00:44] Scott W. Luton: Hey, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you may be. Scott Luton with you here on Supply Chain Now. Welcome to today’s show. Folks, today we’re speaking with the CEO of one of the largest industry associations in the world, one that has long specialized in serving global supply chain. And we’re gonna be talking about a variety of topics that are shaping industry almost every single day, almost every single hour.

[00:01:06] Scott W. Luton: From how AI is presenting opportunities and challenges to organizations everywhere, to how globalization continues to evolve as well, and what it may, might look like next, to the ever-evolving role of the s- uh, chief supply chain officer. All that and much, much more. So, stay tuned for a great show with lots of actionable perspective.

[00:01:27] Scott W. Luton: But I wanna start by welcoming in our special guest here today. Abe Eshkenazi is the CEO of the Association for Supply Chain Management, ASCM. Now, you may recogni- uh, recognize ASCM as the association that serves as a catalyst for organizational transformation, talent development, and supply chain innovation.

[00:01:47] Scott W. Luton: But some folks may not know, I served as a volunteer for about 13 years for the organization, especially, uh, with the Atlanta chapter. In fact, I met Abe in person right as the organization was rebranding from APICS to ASCM. Now, with more than two decades of leadership experience, Abe has guided ASCM through transformative growth, global expansion, and the launch of initiatives that promote sustainability and ethical practices across supply chains.

[00:02:14] Scott W. Luton: So with all that said, I wanna welcome in Abe Eshkenazi to the show once again. Abe, how you doing? 

[00:02:20] Abe Eshkenazi: my pleasure. to join you, Scott 

[00:02:22] Scott W. Luton: Good to see you again. You know, I was going back, I was looking at some old pictures, uh, when we first sat down, when we had first launched this podcast, and we interviewed you at, um, at an, an event up in Chicago.

[00:02:36] Scott W. Luton: And Abe, all I could think about is, oh my gosh, what, we had no idea of what was to come, right? Pandemics, the golden age of supply chain tech, and a whole bunch more. You remember that, Abe?

[00:02:50] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, uh, fortunately and unfortunately, yeah, because, uh, it seems like the past five years have been like 20 years, just those, uh, changes that we’ve gone through. Scott, it has been an extraordinary ride for this industry and for the profession, and we continue to evolve as the profession has. Obviously, this is a, a dynamic field.

[00:03:09] Abe Eshkenazi: You and I have been around long enough to know that we do not stand still 

[00:03:13] Scott W. Luton: Never. Never once. Um, and the minute we do, that’s when we get in trouble. But I wanna ask you this before we, we, we’ll get into you and I are big supply chain nerds, and that’s a term of endearment. We’ll get into that stuff in a minute. But I got, I learned something about you in the green room. And by the way, big tip of the hat to, uh, Mindy and Joshua who’s helping us out both behind the scenes.

[00:03:32] Scott W. Luton: Um, so we learned that your household, your, your fellow dog people, you know, we got two rescue hounds here, Ruby and Sunny, and we learned you’ve got a new addition to your household. Tell us more

[00:03:45] Abe Eshkenazi: Yeah, we just picked up, uh, the, uh, s- a Spanish Water Dog. Uh, he’s about 12 weeks old, and we’re going through the terrible twos with him right now, but it has been such a great addition to the family. Uh, he’s extraordinarily bright dogs. It, uh, requires a lot of attention, uh, so it’s keeping me on my toes for sure.

[00:04:01] Abe Eshkenazi: And, uh, especially when bringing in a new family member, it’s been a, a treat for everybody. He’s a, he’s a keeper 

[00:04:08] Scott W. Luton: Oh, I love that. Well, you know, and they’re really worth all the headaches and all the trouble. It’s amazing what dogs do. And I was tell- I was talking to somebody, a dear friend the other day, that had lost their dog, uh, back in May. And we both were, you know, lamenting that for a second. But, you know, we st- both started realizing, you know, we both love dogs, but it’s really, it’s baked into human DNA for thousands and thousands of years.

[00:04:34] Scott W. Luton: It’s kind of how we’re pre-programmed a bit, huh?

[00:04:36] Abe Eshkenazi: Absolutely. I couldn’t be… It’s a great addition to the family, a great calming influence. As, uh, as energetic as he is, it is wonderful to have him around 

[00:04:45] Scott W. Luton: Well, we look forward to pictures. Uh, all right. So we got a lot to get to here today, and we’re gonna, I’m mainly gonna pick your brain on three themes. I mean, we could be here all day to talk about a lot of stuff in global supply chain, but three themes, and then we’re gonna talk more about what ASCM’s got, uh, going on, including change, which is coming up soon.

[00:05:05] Scott W. Luton: Uh, so I wanna start with AI, right? Artificial intelligence. It’s an amazing time, uh, not just for AI, but for technology in general across global business. Now, Abe, I might have been telling you this in the, in the pre-show, but I was reading an, um, a really interesting industry survey the other day, and one of the things that really, I don’t know if it surprised me, it just, it stood out to me.

[00:05:31] Scott W. Luton: Based on, I think they had surveyed about 500, uh, practitioners across global supply chain, and, um, close to 30% of that segment, of that, uh, data set said their organizations weren’t leveraging AI yet. Now, I don’t know if it should be 60% or if it should be closer to, who knows, 10%, but that just kind of surprised me.

[00:05:58] Scott W. Luton: K- kind of stopped me in my tracks a bit. What do you see in general with AI, and in particular, what do you see when it comes to the biggest challenges for organizations out there deploying and scaling 

[00:06:09] Scott W. Luton: AI?

[00:06:10] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, I think like you, Scott, I, in some respects, I am surprised by the number that it’s not higher, and in some respects, when we take a look at the implementation, I’m surprised it’s even that high. Uh, we’ve spent an enormous amount of time talking about what AI?

[00:06:23] Abe Eshkenazi: can do. I don’t know that we’ve spent enough time talking about what has to be true to actually benefit from it, and I think that’s where we really need to start the conversation.

[00:06:32] Abe Eshkenazi: Um, among the, the, the primary objectives or the, the challenges that we have, first is data. Um, AI is only as good as the data that’s feeding it. It’s historical. It does not create data. It uses data that’s historical to the organization. Unfortunately, most of the companies that we’re working with, and we’ve all seen this, on fragmented data across different ERP systems.

[00:06:54] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, your suppliers are not connected, your logistics providers may or may not be, you know, sharing information, legacy platforms. Um, you can layer on sophisticated AI over bad data and expect good decisions. I don’t think that’s gonna happen today. And so we’re seeing a quite a focus on the fundamentals, getting your data Right

[00:07:13] Abe Eshkenazi: first before you start to, you know, mine that information.

[00:07:17] Abe Eshkenazi: The second area, and I think that, Scott, you and I have been to how many conferences and where we talk about AI, and almost at the end of every session, they, they conclude with, “Don’t forget about your talent.” That ought to be truly one of the first topics that you talk about is the in- this individuals who understand the technology, but also understand supply chain.

[00:07:38] Abe Eshkenazi: We need both. We’re tremendously overweighted in technology and analytics. Over and over again, we’re seeing systems that are much more powerful than we’re really leveraging them. Unfortunately, we’re underweighted in critical thinking and problem-solving for the individuals, especially with the new individuals coming into the marketplace, Scott, and I think you and I have experienced this.

[00:07:58] Abe Eshkenazi: I mean, we’ve been around a long time. Individuals coming into the market Right

[00:08:02] Abe Eshkenazi: now are digital natives. They’ve never known an environment where they did not have access to information. Unfortunately, you and I, and I’m, I’m sure a whole host of other individuals are still relying on Excel in the back office, and we’ll say, “You know what?

[00:08:15] Abe Eshkenazi: That’s great that you got that AI. I’m still relying on my internal systems here.” And I think that’s part of the, you know, the, the reverse mentoring that we need in terms of adoption of AI, but also that, you know, that critical thinking and that heuristic and that experience that, you know, the gray hairs have to enable individuals coming into the market to truly understand the data coming in and the data coming out. Next, governance. And that is, you know, who owns the decision? Who owns the algorithm? Who is asking the questions? Um, if your underlying processes are broken, AI can simply make bad decisions faster. We’ve heard this over and over again. Organizations, we need clarity about where AI can make the decision.

[00:08:57] Abe Eshkenazi: Where do we allow AI to inform, a- analyze, and then predict, and then the next step is obviously take action. And I think this is where the next, you know, significant step that’s being taken here is that AI is not only analyzing and predicting, but increasingly it’s taking action. That really raises the stakes for governance and accountability and trust.

[00:09:19] Abe Eshkenazi: At the end of the day, somebody needs to own that decision. You can’t point to a system and say, “There’s where the decision is made.” So, you know, i- in summary, I think the biggest challenge that we have to AI right now isn’t technology. It’s whether we have the data, the talent, and the processes capable of taking advantage of it 

[00:09:36] Scott W. Luton: Yes. Okay, I was taking notes, and there’s about 20 things as part of your response I’d love to talk to, but of course, we don’t have time for that. There’s so mu- a lot of richness in your response. I want to pick up on the last thing you shared because, uh, I have believed this for years, that, you know, the technology challenges we have may, not always, but may pale in comparison to the leadership challenges we have, right?

[00:09:59] Scott W. Luton: Um, and, and that’s kind of one of the things you were, uh, kind of alluding to at the end. And then two other things I want to point out based on some of the things you mentioned. Number one, you started with data, as we should when we talk about, um, AI, along with the problems we’re trying to solve. I think we missed that step too.

[00:10:14] Scott W. Luton: But did you see, Abe, um, a lot… This has been kind of under the radar. I’ve just– And, and of course, we’re, we’re recording this podcast, I think it’s, it’s around mid-August. And it’s being reported by CNN, Reuters, and other outlets when it comes to data, that Google has submitted a winning bid. Do you remember Spirit Airlines, right?

[00:10:34] Scott W. Luton: I flew that, on that airline exactly once from Atlanta to Vegas, and I had, I was good. But it went defunct earlier this year, and Google has, uh, uh, submitted a winning bid to acquire all of the Spirit Airlines data, essentially, from employee emails to, uh, teams chats, to marketing and operational, uh, workflows for like 10, $10 million.

[00:11:00] Scott W. Luton: And of course, they’re gonna use it, amongst other things, based on what I’ve been able to read, to train up, um, um, uh, train AI and many other things. But that is absolutely fascinating because it also touches on one of the things you mentioned, which is governance. And I’m, I’m curious now with, as we see that deal that’s come to light, if how we treat organizational data and IP and employee records, you name it, how is that going to evolve when it comes to bankruptcies and M&A and, and those kinds of things?

[00:11:31] Scott W. Luton: Abe, you may not, you may or may not have seen that story. Just your quick reaction 

[00:11:35] Scott W. Luton: to that.

[00:11:36] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, uh, the… You bring up a really key point here, and that is access to data Right

[00:11:40] Abe Eshkenazi: now, not only within the organization, but what we make available to our partners. Um, the, the pandemic, I think, was one of the, you know, we learned a lot through the pandemic. One of them was the lack of visibility that we had to our extended supply chain.

[00:11:54] Abe Eshkenazi: So to your point, we’ve spent an enormous amount of money in technology and transformation to ensure that we’re getting the information on a timely, relevant basis so we can make more informed decisions. And so this push for technological advancement and integration is, you know, it, it’s critical.

[00:12:12] Abe Eshkenazi: There’s no supply chain professional that can walk into the C-suite today and say, “I don’t know who or what is in my supply chain.” That is off the table. That theoretically is the good news. The bad news now, Scott, is that we now know who and what is in our supply chains. And now we need to do something about it.

[00:12:30] Abe Eshkenazi: We’re finding that we’re not as resilient, we’re not as sustainable, and we may not be as ethical as we had expected to be. This is where data comes in, and it’s critical to get that information and to develop that trust across your extended supply chain. So That’s the good news. The challenging part is, as we’ve moved towards the integration of data through our extended partners, we’re now opening up ourselves to cyber risk and ransomware attacks through these extended partners here.

[00:12:56] Abe Eshkenazi: So, uh, I’m not surprised at the, you know, at the push to gain more data. My concern is what i- what are you doing with that data? How do you protect that information? And how do you make it accessible to your partners so that you can collectively make better decisions? Uh, again, the aggregation of data is, you know, paramount.

[00:13:14] Abe Eshkenazi: How you, you know, aggregate and how you use that data is even more important, and who has access to it 

[00:13:20] Scott W. Luton: That’s right. Uh, uh, I largely agree with everything you shared there. And, you know, as you might imagine, going back to the Google and s- and the Spirit Airlines, there’s already litigation. Uh, I think the, um, the Flight Attendants Association, uh, got a, a, a judge to postpone the, the fi- finalization of the deal until they, everyone’s assured that the anonym- anonymization, if I said that right, takes place.

[00:13:43] Scott W. Luton: We’ll see. One last thing, and we’re gonna get to the second theme I wanna ask you about. Uh, you talked about talent, and often that can be overlooked. And, uh, and folks, going back to leadership challenge, and my hunch is Abe agrees, it’s incumbent upon us as leaders in organizations that we equip our, our valuable human components of our, uh, supply chain ecosystems to, uh, to develop and progress and add to the toolkit so they can better navigate, make decisions, but, um, develop their toolkits as we move deeper and deeper into this, this modern age.

[00:14:17] Scott W. Luton: Would you agree with that, 

[00:14:18] Scott W. Luton: Abe?

[00:14:19] Abe Eshkenazi: Yeah, I do. And I’m also a little bit concerned about the career progression, Scott. I mean, when you and I first entered into the marketplace, we did the fundamentals. You did a lot of the, you know, the integration, you did a lot of the analysis by hand. You know, you used technology, of course. But today, a lot of those functions, you know, the perfunctory steps are now being taken over by AI.

[00:14:39] Abe Eshkenazi: So we’re having individuals that are moving into, you know, leadership positions that don’t really have the fundamentals. They really never understood it. Um, it’s a little bit like driving the car. I mean, you don’t think about driving the car anymore if you’ve been driving it for so long, your mind is in other areas, but you know the fundamentals of driving the car.

[00:14:58] Abe Eshkenazi: Today, we’re… it’s like handing the keys to an F1 car to a 16-year-old. They may know how to drive the car, but they’re gonna crash it. And I think this is part of the challenge that we have here, is in terms of preparing individuals for the new jobs within supply chain. It is not your dad’s supply chain industry anymore, and the expectations for the individuals coming in is that they do have the technical knowledge, but now much more on a collaboration, much more on a coordination, communication.

[00:15:24] Abe Eshkenazi: What we used to consider soft skills, which you and I know are not soft at all. These are difficult, you know, traits to develop, and how are you going to do it if AI is taking away or, You know, is supplanting a lot of that foundational work? That’s part of the challenge that we have

[00:15:40] Scott W. Luton: You know, um, that car analogy you used a minute ago really hits home because, uh, we just gained a new driver in our household a year or so ago, and I, I’ve never been as nervous. Now she’s extremely capable, right? And she probably drives better than me, but still. Uh, but kidding aside, it’s all, you know, as I heard in your response there, it’s all so interrelated, right?

[00:16:06] Scott W. Luton: Because that brings a go- you know, if, if, if we’re, we’re using AI for all the, the blocking and tackling, well, we gotta bring some more governance in to make sure we don’t wreck that F1 or whatever. But, um, but nevertheless, so I gotta get– we could talk about this all day. I wanna get to this second point, uh, that I want you to weigh in on, and I’m gonna use again, you know, I think milestones give us perfect times to kind of reflect back on personal, professional, you name it.

[00:16:33] Scott W. Luton: And we just celebrated, me and Amanda, our 20th wedding anniversary. It’s hard for me to say that because I can’t believe it. 

[00:16:40] Abe Eshkenazi: Congratulations on that. 

[00:16:41] Scott W. Luton: hey, we made it, and, and she is very patient, so but, 

[00:16:46] Abe Eshkenazi: She’s a saint. 

[00:16:47] Scott W. Luton: she is a saint, uh, Saint Amanda. Um, but I, so I was writing, of course, because I’m a supply chain nerd, kinda I was reflecting back on 2006 and, you know, that, that’s only 20 years ago, but it might as well be, you know, 100 years ago.

[00:17:01] Scott W. Luton: Because if you think back then, Abe, in 2006 was when, if you look at WTO data, it shows that China’s monthly export volumes beat out the US for the first time that year. That’s crazy to think about. And we all know how it played out since then. And some, you know, sometime around 20 years ago, you can’t quite put a, you know, look at a calendar and circle a particular date, but I would argue, and this is very arguably, argub- arguable, that that was probably that era was the peak of efficiency above all else era of global supply chain, somewhere around there.

[00:17:38] Scott W. Luton: So now fast-forward 20 years, I gotta ask you, your thoughts on the status of globalization and what may the next supply chain map look 

[00:17:46] Scott W. Luton: like?

[00:17:47] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, it really interesting when you go back, Scott, you know, those 20 years and, you know, where were we 20 years ago? As you just pointed out, uh, China had just joined the WTO back in 2001, you know, 2000, 2001. That was only a few years. And in less than five years, that statistic that you pointed out, how telling is that?

[00:18:06] Abe Eshkenazi: I don’t believe that globalization is ending. Um, uh, I think it’s being redrawn. Um, as you indicated, if we go back to 2006, the dominant supply chain model was relatively straightforward, optimized globally for cost and efficiency. Speed and cost were the key determinants for almost every organization.

[00:18:23] Abe Eshkenazi: Outsourcing was, you know, headlong for almost every company on labor arbitrage. As you indicated, China had just joined the WTO a few years ago. Global trade was expanding. Companies were building extraordinarily efficient global networks. We architected this world, this, you know, China, we architected this Today, the equation is extraordinarily different.

[00:18:46] Abe Eshkenazi: Um, cost and efficiency still matter. Um, the CFO is not going away. Uh, that still is a predominant for most organizations, and I think most organizations say, “Just get me back to when it was just cost and efficiency.” But now we’re not going back there. Companies now have to balance, you know, resilience, uh, geopolitical risk, uh, tariffs, obviously, national security, access to critical minerals, what’s in our national interest, uh, our national health, and all of this now matters.

[00:19:15] Abe Eshkenazi: And now we’re seeing much more regionalization, uh, nearshoring, friendshoring. These are all now, you know, concepts that are now being evaluated in terms of how do we, you know, maintain our cost and our efficiency structure while moving towards a much more multipolar world as opposed to the global supply chain that we’ve become accustomed to for a long time.

[00:19:37] Abe Eshkenazi: Um, y- you don’t just simply pick up a company and move the factory away from China into somewhere else. Uh, that just isn’t happening here. Supply chains need ecosystems. Um, we need suppliers. We need infrastructure. We need logistics, energy. Um, more importantly, we need talent. Um, no greater example than TSMC in Arizona.

[00:19:58] Abe Eshkenazi: Um, we started building that factory, what, you know, almost four or five years ago or six years ago. We’re still importing talent from Taiwan because we don’t have the talent today, and I think that’s a critical component here in terms of how do you move, how do you ship complete infrastructure or complete supply chains?

[00:20:15] Abe Eshkenazi: And I think this is where I think more often than not, it’s a little bit myopic for individuals to say, “Well, just nearshore. Just bring it back.” And I think this is where we need much more on optionality as opposed to just a particular geography. Um, it, it no longer is just pick a, a location and you’ll be able to invest in that for the next 10 to 20 years and you can just manufacture and go on your way.

[00:20:38] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, leaders today need multiple sourcing options. I need greater visibility into my extended network. I need the ability to respond to conditions when they change. Um, clearly we’re in an extraordinary dynamic environment today. The duration, frequency, and the severity of the disruptions that we’re facing are unprecedented, and they’re all happening at the same time.

[00:21:00] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, part of the challenge is in terms of the predictive analytics. Uh, we’re using AI. AI cannot predict a lot of the disruptions that we’re facing here. AI would never have predicted the Houthis and the Red Sea asymmetric warfare on shutting down that shipping lane Today, the objective isn’t to predict the next disruption.

[00:21:19] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, we’ve proven that we’re really not good at that, I think over and over again. I think the objective is to build supply chains that are capable to respond to whatever happens next, and I think this is where organizations are having a lot of struggle because for the CSCO, I want optionality, and I want multiple vendors.

[00:21:36] Abe Eshkenazi: I want the ability to negotiate different contracts. I want different logistics routes. I want safety stock. I want increased inventory. The CFO is gonna be very clear on what he wants. I want committed contracts. I want fixed pricing, and I want reduced inventory. This is a struggle, and this is a tug of war that’s going on Right

[00:21:53] Abe Eshkenazi: now within organizations, and not only in terms of geography, but in terms of who your partner networks are, and I think we’re seeing much more in a multipolar world.

[00:22:03] Abe Eshkenazi: Again, I don’t think we’re witnessing the end of globalization. I think we’re witnessing the end of globalization just based on speed and cost or efficiency 

[00:22:11] Scott W. Luton: I want to go back to something you said on the front end. You were talking about the, um, the TSMC, uh, fa- new mega foundry, uh, there in Arizona, which I’m still, given all the water challenges out West Mississippi, I’m still not engineering enough to figure out how that was solved, but I’ll s- I’ll save that for the smart folks.

[00:22:30] Scott W. Luton: But, you know, the– I wish I had the number in front of me, but the amount of commitment when it comes to building out the semiconductor industry here again in the US ’cause, you know, frankly, it’s a national security issue in many ways. Um, and, and, and that’s, that’s great. Wonderful. I hope, I hope they all come to fruition.

[00:22:47] Scott W. Luton: There’s lots of challenges there that different companies have, have, have run into, to your point. But the talent, if that isn’t one of the best examples of why we have got to find new ways of bridging this talent gap, because that’s a critical industry that the world is, is, is benefiting from, but also looking to build out.

[00:23:07] Scott W. Luton: Where are we gonna find all the talent, whether it’s for that one plant or many of the other mega projects that are on the, in the pipeline, huh? 

[00:23:16] Abe Eshkenazi: You got Intel Right

[00:23:17] Abe Eshkenazi: down the road from them as well. I mean, there, there’s a tremendous amount of investment in bringing manufacturing back. As we indicated before, Scott, we need the ecosystem. We need the suppliers. We need the infrastructure, transportation, and to your point, energy. Um, you know, energy is a huge, you know, the water is a huge issue within the, you know, the Southwest area, and it is not expanding.

[00:23:39] Abe Eshkenazi: It is a very tight resource here. And so as we’re taking a look at access to minerals and, you know, critical minerals, the basic needs for these companies are, you know, a challenge today. And again, you know, talking about TSMC, the, the next or the latest chip won’t roll off that factory until 2028. The chips that are rolling off now are not the latest generation.

[00:24:01] Abe Eshkenazi: So we’re talking years in terms of development here, and I think that’s part of the challenge as well, Scott. It’s hard to, you know, get, you know, a CEO or board of directors that invests billions of dollars into a plant that won’t be operational for two to three years at the earliest. But you don’t know where you’re gonna source from, you don’t know what your manufacturing footprint looks like, you don’t know what your cost structure looks like.

[00:24:23] Abe Eshkenazi: But go ahead and invest $2 to $3 billion on the probability that you can’t find out these answers before you go, you know, full production. That’s a big ask for a lot of companies today 

[00:24:33] Scott W. Luton: It is. Uh, in fact, you might have more confidence at a roulette table in Vegas, uh, than, than that, uh, big bet right there. Um, well, it’s, it’s fascinating and, and I tell you that the whole semiconductor industry is a fascinating one to, to track and, uh, you know, we got to… And, but also you mentioned energy, and energy’s really y- the, the, the immense demand for electrification, not just in the US but globally, uh, and, and of course, in its second cousin’s infrastructure.

[00:25:03] Scott W. Luton: We got to really upgrade the infrastructure and all that is 

[00:25:06] Abe Eshkenazi: With the data center, Scott, that’s a that’s a huge challenge 

[00:25:10] Scott W. Luton: I’m, I’m with you. And of course, data center, if you look at the economy and you look at, at, uh, in fact, in fact, in fact, Abe, did you see this? I mean, we’re gonna be here all day. You keep, you keep bringing up things to talk about. Um, the Fed is trying to get a better idea of how big of a role that the data center build-out is, is weighing into, you know, the bigger roll-up economic trends.

[00:25:35] Scott W. Luton: In fact, they’ve started separating the data so they can really pull it out and look at the all told figure versus here’s the, the data center impact. And I think all of us are probably curious what happens inevitably when the data center slowdown takes place, right? What does it happen to the economy?

[00:25:55] Scott W. Luton: What does it ha- I mean, the trickle-down effect is massive. So we’ll see. But let me get to this third one, because energy is where I was gonna pick up on. Um, I’m a big fan, uh, Abe, of Schneider Electric, and of course, they are synonymous with, um, many things, but especially infrastructure, right? And, uh, I was talking with their chief supply chain officer.

[00:26:17] Scott W. Luton: I, I had a great opportunity to meet him in person a while back, Murad Tamud, uh, chief supply chain officer of Schneider Electric. And, you know, we were, we were talking, and I’ve talked like with other supply chain leaders about this. We finally got a seat at the table. It was hard-fought, right? And, and now, of course, as a dear friend used to say, we gotta do something with it, right?

[00:26:38] Scott W. Luton: But the cool thing is supply chain leadership is driving competitive advantage in so many new, incredible ways. And of course, the CSCO role is continues to evolve. But check this out. This is what Murad said just the other day, and I’m gonna quote him here. Quote, “The role of the chief supply chain officer has evolved far beyond managing operations.

[00:26:57] Scott W. Luton: Today, CSCOs are helping shape business strategy, competitiveness, resilience, and transformation across the company. Cross-industry perspectives play a critical role in that evolution, exposing leaders to new ideas, new approaches, and new ways to create value.” Uh, end quote. I like, I, I tend to agree with that, and I think it’s eloquent.

[00:27:19] Scott W. Luton: He, he said it very Shakespearean. But how do you see the role of the chief supply chain s- su- the CSCO continuing to 

[00:27:27] Scott W. Luton: evolve?

[00:27:28] Abe Eshkenazi: and Scott, I think you and I were long, you know, around long enough when we predicted that the path to the C-suite would be through the, you know, supply chain function. Uh, although we couldn’t find any CSCOs. 

[00:27:39] Scott W. Luton: True

[00:27:41] Abe Eshkenazi: They’d be truly unicorns within the marketplace. Um, today, I think the, uh, you know, as we talked about getting the seat at the table for years, literally 2010, I think, is when we started the conversation about CSCOs and, you know, getting them recognized.

[00:27:57] Abe Eshkenazi: Um, uh, they have a seat at the table. I think the conversation is outdated about getting a seat at the table. Uh, the question today is, as, uh, you pointed out, it’s what does the CSCO do with that seat at the table? Uh, as you pointed out, uh, fundamentally, the job has changed dramatically, just the fundamentals of it.

[00:28:14] Abe Eshkenazi: Um, technical experience is now the price of entry, that, you have to have that. Uh, we used to be measured, as we indicated before, by cost and efficiency, you know, inventory, service, efficiency, perfect orders. Those were always the key determinants for the, you know, the supply chain. Uh, those haven’t disappeared.

[00:28:33] Abe Eshkenazi: Un- unfortunately, now they’re layered on, as you, you know, just pointed out, uh, geopolitics, uh, trade policies, um, AI, cybersecurity, sustainability, resilience, workforce development. I mean, it’s, you layer all of these on and you say, “Wait a second. Where are we getting these unicorns? How is somebody that, you know, fluent in all of these areas, all these, all of these domains?”

[00:28:57] Abe Eshkenazi: And that’s what really means for the CSCO, and they need a much broader set of competencies than we had in the past. Financial literacy, technology, that’s always been a, you know, a key determinant. But now geopolitical awareness are becoming as important as traditional, uh, supply chain expertise. These individuals are architects of the enterprise today.

[00:29:17] Abe Eshkenazi: Um, their work used to be in the back office, and the only time that you heard from them is when there was a problem. Today, you have to work with the CFO, your chief sustainability officer, your chief compliance officer, your CEO, your board of directors. Now the CSCO is front and center. I challenge anybody to read a corporate report that doesn’t have supply chain within the first two 

[00:29:38] Scott W. Luton: Right?

[00:29:39] Abe Eshkenazi: The, it clearly indicating the criticality of that function and of that role within the organization. Supply chains decisions today, they affect every aspect of the organization, from revenue to working capital, um, investment, as we just talked about, risk, and ultimately the enterprise strategy. Who is doing what, and how are we doing it? I really think there’s one more evolution that’s coming, and we touched on it a little bit before with the AI, is that as AI takes over more on the analysis and on the predictive, you know, analytics, you know, that routine decision-making, what’s the value of the CEO, you know, the CSCO becoming much more on judgment, on leadership, on develop- on, you know, talent development, the ability to make decisions amid uncertainty using your experience.

[00:30:26] Abe Eshkenazi: And I think that’s, you know, really the, you know, the, the trajectory of the, you know, the CSCO. We’ve earned the seat at the table. It was not given to these individuals. Now we have to demonstrate that supply chain isn’t just an operating function, it’s an enterprise strategy. It affects every aspect of the organization 

[00:30:42] Scott W. Luton: Hmm. Well said. Well s- it’s, it really is. Um, despite all the challenges we’ve got here in 2026, and there’s no short of them, old, longstanding, and certainly some new ones that weren’t on our radar at the beginning of the year, it still is an exciting time for the industry, an exciting time for supply chain professionals.

[00:31:01] Scott W. Luton: And to your point, even the, the, the echelon, you know, the top echelon, the CSCO office, to see the role they’re playing largely in. You know, I haven’t looked at, um, C-suite transitions like data in a long time, 

[00:31:14] Abe Eshkenazi: Ja 

[00:31:14] Scott W. Luton: my hunch, Abe, my hunch is that CSCOs are arguably uniquely positioned to move right, more and more right into the CEO role.

[00:31:24] Abe Eshkenazi: We are seeing it. Um, I mean, you have your stalwarts, you have your Tim Cooks and your Mary Barra at GM. We’re seeing more and more CSCOs now moving into that?

[00:31:33] Abe Eshkenazi: CEO position. Clearly an earned responsibility and accountability based on their experience and their judgment 

[00:31:39] Scott W. Luton: Hmm. All right. Good stuff. Uh, all right, so let’s do this. Let, we could, we, I, I, I’ve got about seven more things I could ask you about, but for the sake of time, I wanna kinda come down the home stretch. Let’s talk about what ASCM’s up to. So two-part question here. We’re gonna talk about change in just a minute, change the event.

[00:31:58] Scott W. Luton: But before we get there, what is one thing that you are most excited about when it comes to what ASCM is doing here in 

[00:32:05] Scott W. Luton: 2026?

[00:32:07] Abe Eshkenazi: You know, the– it’s an interesting question. I, I, I was reflecting on this, um, I was on a panel, um, a couple of months ago, and, you know, as you’re introducing yourself, you’re indicating, you know, what your title is and your role, and you know, how long you’ve been with the organization. And it struck me.

[00:32:20] Abe Eshkenazi: You know, I, I said I’ve been with the organization for 20 years. I said, “But I can honestly tell you that I haven’t worked for the same company for more than three to four years.” That we’ve had to respond to changes in the marketplace, whether it be the ash cloud or the tsunami, or obviously COVID, but we’ve dealt with disruptions.

[00:32:37] Abe Eshkenazi: This is not new to the industry. But what excites me most is how APICS, and now ASCM, has and continues to evolve with the profession. Um, y- this is not, as we indicated before, your dad’s supply chain or your mom’s supply chain anymore. Uh, for decades, our role has, you know, as ASCM, was a focus on the supply chain professional, uh, knowledge, standards, competency, recognition, credentials, you know, developing that, you know, that well-rounded supply chain professional, giving them the, the tools they need to succeed.

[00:33:09] Abe Eshkenazi: And that remains fundamental. That’s never changed. But the profession, as we had just talked about, is changing incredibly rapid. Uh, as, you know, we discussed on AI, politics, sustainability, resiliency, what supply chains need, what supply chain professionals need to know now, and how quickly they need to learn it, is exponentially quicker, faster than we experienced, you know, 15 to 20 years ago.

[00:33:32] Abe Eshkenazi: So what excites me about ASCM is that we’ve positioned ASCM to continue to evolve with the industry. Um, we thought that, you know, if we trained the world, that that was our Holy Grail. If we trained everybody in the world, and then we realized that, wait a second, if we train them and they don’t contribute to an organizational success, what have we done?

[00:33:52] Abe Eshkenazi: Nothing. And so we wanted to measure the impact of development and of credentialing on the individuals, one of the reasons we merged with the Supply Chain Council on the score model. It gives us the opportunity to see how organizations are recognizing supply chain as a critical differentiator with the talent side.

[00:34:11] Abe Eshkenazi: But we’re also helping organizations develop their workforces and the community. Uh, we started off with a focus on the supply chain professional. It morphed into the responsibility on the organization, on the economy, on the ecology, on their profitability. And now let’s move one more step, and that’s the impact to our community, the impact to the planet, the impact to every one of our lives that supply chain has.

[00:34:36] Abe Eshkenazi: ASCM as an organization, our responsibility isn’t just to simply prepare for the jobs today that exist. It’s really to prepare them for the jobs that are being created tomorrow. And that’s what really excites me about ASCM, and the board of directors specifically, is their willingness to adapt and adopt the, you know, different focus areas.

[00:34:55] Abe Eshkenazi: As the industry has evolved, uh, we have evolved, and I’m really proud of the organization in terms of embracing the need to change and respond to how quickly the industry is moving. 

[00:35:08] Scott W. Luton: All right. Well, I can’t, I can’t look, wait to see what lies ahead. Uh, and I say that, it’s interesting. I can say that very practically, positively, right? And then I think about, oh my gosh, if we… Two years ago, I didn’t know about some of these challenges that we’d be fighting through now. Because to your point, it’s, it’s tough.

[00:35:29] Scott W. Luton: We expect disruption, and I think we’re learning the importance of doing that more and more, but it’s, it’s tough to expect which disruption. We’ll see. Uh, all right, so I think folks can go to ascm.org to learn more about ASCM, right? And is that right, Abe? 

[00:35:45] Abe Eshkenazi: Yep. Absolutely 

[00:35:46] Scott W. Luton: And folks, you got certifications, you’ve got, uh, more reports ASCM’s putting out.

[00:35:51] Scott W. Luton: Of course, you got great events, and that’s where I’m gonna go next. 

[00:35:53] Abe Eshkenazi: Content trends. Yep 

[00:35:54] Scott W. Luton: So Abe, I was at, uh, in Columbus last year at Change. I think the first, the inaugural Change event after, um, you know, y’all been doing an- annual events for a long time, but y- you, you kind of said, “Hey, you know what?” Kind of going back to your point about evolution, “Let’s reinvent this.”

[00:36:10] Scott W. Luton: So I enjoyed, I think I had eight different interviews with CSCOs from, uh, footwear to apparel to, uh, lots, lots of great, uh, conversations. And I think, I think your new addition, I think your new addition to the house is, uh, wanting to get on the 

[00:36:27] Abe Eshkenazi: You can hear him, huh? 

[00:36:28] Scott W. Luton: I love it. All right, so tell, tell us about Change 2026 and why folks gotta be there

[00:36:36] Abe Eshkenazi: I really appreciate that, Scott, and I, and I think if we just take a look at this conversation, that’s what it’s really designed around, is the topics that we’re talking about today. Uh, first, we’ll be in Long Beach, uh, what gives us an incredible backdrop on the supply chain and the ports from not only from Long Beach, but from LA.

[00:36:53] Abe Eshkenazi: You’re sitting next to one of the most important gateways for global trade for the world, truly, and obviously the criticality for the, you know, the US. Um, we’ll be talking about AI, terrorist resilience, uh, workforce transformation, and more importantly, the g- the future of global supply chains. And what’s really transformed, as you indicated last year, we, you know, took a little bit different of a, a focus here.

[00:37:17] Abe Eshkenazi: What’s different for me, it’s not simply about identifying the trends, it’s about bringing individuals, the practitioners, thought leaders together to have a conversation. Um, more often than not, we’re sitting in our offices without the ability to exchange information, to learn from others. Today, we need to find ways to engage.

[00:37:35] Abe Eshkenazi: We need to find ways to provide opportunities for the individual to learn from each other. Uh, there are individuals, there are organizations that are making significant changes. There’s an opportunity for us to learn from them. And especially given the pace of change right now, I’m not sure there’s a more important time for supply chain leaders to get together and compare notes, uh, challenge your assumptions, and more importantly, learn from one another.

[00:37:57] Abe Eshkenazi: If you want to understand where supply chain is going, and if you want to know what you should do about it, that’s where we have the conversation of change 

[00:38:05] Scott W. Luton: Outstanding, Abe. And folks, uh, we’ll try to include the link in the show notes, but if you’re listening to this podcast discussion, uh, I’m gonna share the link with you. It’s NA for North America, ’cause I think you have a, you have a, uh, a sister event, uh, overseas. Is that right, Abe?

[00:38:23] Abe Eshkenazi: Yep. We had one in, um, Belgium last year. As a matter of fact, Brussels. Yeah 

[00:38:26] Scott W. Luton: Outstanding. So folks, to learn more about CHAINge 2026, go to na.CHAINge.events. And by the way, folks, CHAINge is spelled C-H-A-I-N-G-E, as in, of course, uh, supply chain. So good stuff, na.CHAINge.events. All right, so Abe, as we start to wind down, one of the last couple questions I want to ask you is, you tried to get this past my radar, but you didn’t, Abe.

[00:38:51] Scott W. Luton: You didn’t. It’s on my queue to read. You finally published a book that I think you’ve been really probably writing for 20 years, “The Chain: Links That Bind Us.” And I know you can get this on Amazon, many, many other places. What do you hope folks walk away with after reading “The Chain: Links That Bind Us”?

[00:39:10] Abe Eshkenazi: Yeah, it’s, uh, it, it has been a labor of love and, uh, it really, uh, the organization really did spark this, uh, concept for me. And as you indicated, I’ve been thinking about it for a long time, and I always felt that we really tell the supply chain story a little bit backwards. Um, uh, as we usually start, we start with sourcing or manufacturing, and eventually we get to the consumer.

[00:39:32] Abe Eshkenazi: But the supply chain really starts with the consumer. The consumer’s demand signal is the spark that ignites the supply chain. Companies don’t make products that people don’t buy. That’s a bad business model. We make things that people desire and are willing to spend money on, and we make them efficiently and effectively.

[00:39:50] Abe Eshkenazi: If consumers want products that aren’t sustainable and that are cheap and that are, you know, they don’t care about what happens to it after they’re done with it or who touched it or how far it’s traveled, companies are gonna make that product and we’re gonna be very efficient about it. If the consumer says, “You know what?

[00:40:05] Abe Eshkenazi: I want to have sustainable products. I want to ensure that this is not made with conflict minerals. I want to make sure that there is ethical, you know, sourcing as well as no forced labor in this,” companies are gonna respond and they’re gonna provide those products and they’re gonna do it efficiently.

[00:40:21] Abe Eshkenazi: It depends on what the consumer wants, but it’s extremely difficult for the consumer to understand what is in their products, where it came from, how, who touched it, and how far it’s traveled, and more importantly, what happens when they’re done with it. And I think that’s really the crux of the, you know, the, the, the book here is that every time we buy something, we send a signal through an extraordinarily complex network of people, companies, materials, and countries to get what we want.

[00:40:49] Abe Eshkenazi: What I hope readers take away from it is an appreciation not only for how interconnected we really are. I think the pandemic surprised a lot of people that we couldn’t get some basic resources, whether, you know, medicine or toilet paper, for some very fundamental reasons, that the supply chain was broken.

[00:41:07] Abe Eshkenazi: Supply chains just aren’t about trucks or warehouses or factories, because I think that’s what most people think about it. They connect our history, our economies, our societies. Everyday lives were impacted by supply chains, but people really didn’t understand it until it all broke. And now there’s a responsibility that we have as consumers.

[00:41:27] Abe Eshkenazi: Consumers increasingly have the ability to influence how products are made, but it’s extremely difficult to get that information in their hands. It’s coming though, Scott, as we just talked about AI, it will be transformative. Information is available from the companies. We need to make it available for the consumer so they can make informed decisions.

[00:41:47] Abe Eshkenazi: I’m not myopic to think that everybody is going to, you know, want more sustainable products and more ethically, you know, sourced materials. I, I, I’m not naive enough to, to, you know, to think that. There always will be a, you know, a component of individuals and of demographics that will always be price sensitive.

[00:42:03] Abe Eshkenazi: But I also think there’s a significant number of individuals that want to do the right thing, that want to be more sustainable and accountable for what they buy, but it’s extremely difficult for them to know how to participate in today’s supply chain so that makes a difference. And that’s really where the, the focus is for The Chain, is to bring the, the supply chain into everyday terms that people understand, away from the complexity, and more importantly, how what you decide and I decide every day makes a difference 

[00:42:33] Scott W. Luton: Hmm. I like it, Abe. Um, you know, we’re, we’re voting, to your point, these choices we’re making as we vote with our wallet every single day, as a, as our friend used to like to say. Um, all of those decisions, the small ones, the big ones, all of them are very consequential. Uh, so folks, go check out “The Chain: Links That Bind Us.”

[00:42:54] Scott W. Luton: Give it a read, come back and let us know what you think. And, uh, I’m really glad that… But I, I will point some, one thing out, and I’m not throwing any rocks or stones at our dear friends in the CPG industry, but I am glad we’ve moved past the toilet paper supply chain discussion. Oh my gosh, Abe, I have never seen, well, few, very inoften have I seen one topic just dominate everything.

[00:43:21] Scott W. Luton: Uh, I got so many questions around toilet paper. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, folks, go check out “The Chain: Links That Bind Us.” Go check out, uh, CHAINge 2026. Again, C-H-A-I-N-G-E, CHAINge 2026. And go learn what ASCM is up to at ascm.org. Uh, Abe, I think I hit them all, but how can folks connect with you, Abe Eshkenazi?

[00:43:46] Abe Eshkenazi: Uh, well, personally they can, uh, connect with me on LinkedIn. Uh, I always enjoy the conversation there and, uh, will continue to engage obviously with the community. I am done at the end of this year, Scott. Uh, this is the end of my 20 years and, uh, the organization has gone through a search, and so we’re looking forward to the next CEO.

[00:44:03] Abe Eshkenazi: But as for ASCM, I’d encourage people to visit ascm.org. Whether you’re just entering the profession, uh, obviously for students it’s free, it’s unfettered, there are no firewalls for the students, so go in there. This is your career. This is your network. These are the people that will help you along developing your career.

[00:44:21] Abe Eshkenazi: Further, if you’re looking to develop your workforce, there’s certifications, there’s content, there’s a lot of tools and resources there. And more importantly, if you’re really interested, come to Long Beach and see us at, you know, at Change. I think the conversations are gonna be fantastic there, as we’ve had today.

[00:44:36] Abe Eshkenazi: And more importantly, I cannot wait to see where the profession is headed, Scott. Uh, we think we’ve gone through some changes. I can’t wait to see what the next five years holds for supply chain 

[00:44:45] Scott W. Luton: Uh, I can’t either, but I’m– let’s tackle that next week. So, uh, Abe, I appreciate your, uh, constructive, positive view on where our industry is, uh, and where it’s going, and I appreciate what you and ASCM are doing. So, uh, Abe, thank you so much for being here. I’ve been talking with Abe Eshkenazi, CEO of ASCM.

[00:45:07] Scott W. Luton: Uh, Abe, look forward to connecting with you again, my friend. 

[00:45:10] Abe Eshkenazi: Scott, all the best 

[00:45:11] Scott W. Luton: Folks, uh, what a whirlwind of a conversation. So much to talk about, so little time, but really enjoyed Abe’s perspective, and I hope you did as well. Hope you got your 17 pages of notes like I always, like I, I captured here today. So big thanks to Abe and the team.

[00:45:26] Scott W. Luton: To our SCN Global fam, you know your homework, right? You gotta take one thing from all the good stuff that Abe shared here today, right? From themes, to challenges, to innovations, to events, to associations, to opportunities. Take one thing, do something with it. Deeds, not words. That’s how we’re gonna continue to transform the global industry and, uh, really the world itself.

[00:45:49] Scott W. Luton: And with all that said, Scott Luton challenging all of our audience members, do good, give forward, be the change that’s needed, and we’ll see you next time right back here on Supply Chain Now. Thanks, everybody.​