Study after study indicates that diversity plays a critical role in improving revenue while making companies more agile and innovative in the face of constant change. And yet the tech industry continues to lag behind when it comes to investing in Black and Brown tech entrepreneurs. So C&I Studios Founder and CEO Joshua Miller set out to answer a simple question: why aren’t we funding Black tech? He sat down with us to discuss the core issues driving his forthcoming documentary, “Fund Black Tech,” and to share his insights from interviewing emerging entrepreneurs, venture capitalists and execs around the world. Learn more about C&I Studios, the documentary film making process, how companies can move beyond lip service when it comes to diversity – and much more.

Intro/Outro (00:03):

Welcome to supply chain. Now the voice of global supply chain supply chain now focuses on the best in the business for our worldwide audience, the people, the technologies, the best practices, and today’s critical issues. The challenges and opportunities stay tuned to hear from those making global business happen right here on supply chain now.

Kevin L. Jackson (00:31):

Well, well, good morning. This is Kevin L. Jackson host of digital transformers with Kelly Barner from Dial P for procurement with the supply chain. Now Thursday livestream. You want to look at, what’s gotten Greg rancher. I think we got him. I need on a day

Kelly Barner (00:53):

Jokes on. Maybe we’ll maybe we’ll see if we can compete with their dynamic, Kevin and I made quite a duo. Uh, but yeah, thank you so much, everybody who’s joined us. I’m thrilled to be here.

Kevin L. Jackson (01:04):

I said, you know, an old school is telling you and Regis and then it’s Kelly and Ryan, and now it’s Kelly and Kevin. Wow. We’re gonna, we’re gonna take the world by storm

Kelly Barner (01:16):

Kelly,

Kevin L. Jackson (01:18):

Sorry, Kelly. Now trying something new. Uh, it’s a sort of a brainstorm. We came up with called Thursday’s futures and this is the opportunity for Kelly not to pontificate on the future of digital business, but more important in that we want to find out what you think is going to happen. Is there a new normal in the future for us? Will people get back to those hour long commute to tiny cubicles and nondescript buildings downtown or, or they all revolt and refuse to work on anything, but PJ is on the couch. What comes to your mind? Kelly?

Kelly Barner (02:02):

This is actually a really interesting question, you know, cause there were good things about being home and there were not so good things about being home, sweat pants, probably more on the good end, not being able to fit back into normal pool thing less good. But I think what I’ve enjoyed in any of the conversations that I’ve had with people about this is so why. Right? Cause everybody has very different personal drivers for whether they want to go back, whether they want to stay home. Some people have made crazy life choices during this time. So regardless of what the future is from this Thursday going forward, I know it’s going to be interesting.

Kevin L. Jackson (02:34):

I know one of the things I’ve really gotten into this is a good thing. A habit of exercising at a particular time because I don’t, you know, I’m not on the interstate trying to get home, um, uh, today’s show, we’re going to tackle the future of diversity in the tech industry with the director of fun, black tech, Joshua Miller, he’s the CEO of CNN studios. But before we get to that, I’d like to welcome some of our listeners. I’m looking at, uh, Kyle Garcia. He’s uh, apparently he will be, he just not joining us loud, but he felt so compelled to tell Scott he wouldn’t be here. I guess what we fooled Kyle and didn’t worry. And uh, good morning from Georgia that’s uh, Serina says thank you very much for joining us and Peter Peter Beaujolais. He is a regular a Peter. Scott’s not here today, but thanks for joining us. I’d like to hear some of,

Kelly Barner (03:46):

And Kevin, I got to throw a flag on this. It’s not Peter Palais. It’s Peter bullae all night and all day [inaudible] We got to hit the nicknames.

Kevin L. Jackson (04:00):

I did that, right? Absolutely. So, uh, thanks. Looking forward to your comments also, uh, Peter. So, uh, with that I’d like to, um, uh, like to rock them Joshua today’s show.

Joshua Miller (04:18):

Hey, how’s it going?

Kevin L. Jackson (04:20):

So, hi, Joshua, welcome to, uh, Thursdays futures. Before we, before we get started talking about black technology entrepreneurs. Can you tell us a little bit about you and CNR studios?

Joshua Miller (04:36):

Yeah, thanks for having me guys. It’s great to be here. Um, yeah, CNI studios is, uh, just been my baby. Uh, we started this thing in Washington DC in 2006, um, over, I’ve got a really awesome team, uh, that supports me in everything that we do since then the studios in New York city and Tribeca and downtown Los Angeles and in south Florida. So it’s really grown, which has been awesome. And, and um, we kind of work on a bunch of things, uh, and uh, I’m really addicted to growing businesses and helping businesses, uh, scale, uh, expand and elevate. And so we’ve really come alongside of businesses and help them grow. Um, and so that’s kind of been, uh, my passion, uh, with CNI studios and, um, and we’ve been doing it for such a long time. Uh, but every day to us, we’re, we’re in that place with everyone that I worked with where it just doesn’t feel like work. So everyday is pretty awesome.

Kevin L. Jackson (05:29):

Wow. When you’re doing something that does work, that doesn’t feel like work, that’s sort of the holy grail, isn’t it

Joshua Miller (05:37):

It’s really, it’s really weird. I mean, when I was younger, I mean the whole, you like I filmmaking is in my background. So it just the idea that you could get paid to do this was like always very strange. Uh, now every day, that’s what I do. And uh, it’s, you know, sometimes you forget that that like, yeah, you know, you’re here. So I don’t know. It’s one, the coolest things. It’s the coolest job, uh, for me at least.

Kevin L. Jackson (06:00):

Is this something you wanted to do since you a little boy dreaming about being behind the camera and tell him,

Joshua Miller (06:08):

Um, I don’t, you know, I will say this ever since I was very young, I would, you know, look at, you know, cameras. I was the kid that was always breaking my parents’ television and trying to figure out how it worked. So cameras were always very, uh, exciting, uh, to me and then figuring out, you know, how to get one and then you can shoot stuff with your friends. I, that was always interesting to me, the ability to tell stories in that way, I have always been interested in whether I was four year olds or eight or eight year old, or my parents, you know, everyone was really addicted to when the TV was on. People were paying attention. People were listening, people were watching, uh, the TV had the attention. And, um, I don’t know that stuck with me. And so, uh, now we made it a, you know, just a career and just being able to tell people’s stories. And I really feel like that’s the way that people actually identify with stuff, um, rather than challenging them face to face. Yeah.

Kelly Barner (07:07):

Now, Joshua, just to help us a little bit, understand a little bit more about you and CNI studios, is there a specific type of genre that you would say that your content is in? Is it documentary entertainment? How do you tend to describe the content,

Joshua Miller (07:23):

Man? It really ranges. Um, you know, so it can be on the corporate side. I think there’s a corporate side. And then there’s like a, you know, a creative content side on the corporate side. I mean, we, we dabble in so many different businesses. We’re kind of addicted to anyone. That’s like, Hey, Josh, I want to scale this or this isn’t doing what I want it to do. What we, what my team works so good at is we are constantly thinking and brainstorming of creative ways to achieve that goal. So that could be in the healthcare space. It could be in politics. It could be, um, you know, law firms. I mean it D I mean, products, you name it, but it’s like, we call ourselves a, an idea agency. Um, so it’s kind of a mix of an advertising agency, but also a production company.

Joshua Miller (08:09):

But what we do best is come up with ideas that we know we can execute on. And so in the corporate space, we do that quite a bit. Um, Hey, I want to take my product to this market and we’re not here. I wish we could hit this demo, but we’re not, we’re only hitting this demo. We love that. And this problem solving. So that’s just, so that happens in every industry. So I hate to be that guy. That’s like, I like all, but we really do dabble in a bunch of different industries on the creative side, on the con the content side it’s really started to move like long format really started to become a thing like podcasts like this one, um, uh, documentaries docu-series, um, uh, feature films and television shows. So that’s on the other side of it too. Um, for larger like hotel chains that want to get their message out in a unique way. So we also do that too. So, uh, we really get everyday feels different here. You know, one day, one day we’re shooting a, you know, a documentary and the next day we’re shooting a commercial for target. And then, you know, the next day we’re helping run ads and build a brand for, you know, a fashion client. It all ranges, but it’s really cool because it keeps us on our toes. So, um, it’s pretty fun.

Kelly Barner (09:23):

What does have an amazing team though? Cause when I think about couple of the things that you mentioned, they’re incredibly hard things to do. Creativity is exhausting, right? It’s not natural, it’s exhausting and achieving scale is brutal. So your team must be absolutely incredible to handle all of that and enjoy it at the same time.

Joshua Miller (09:40):

Well, you have to have the right amount of crazy, right? So,

Kevin L. Jackson (09:47):

Uh, you know, a measuring cup,

Joshua Miller (09:50):

It’s a certain amount. You can’t go the T it’s interesting because you have to really love this. Like if you don’t love the entertainment industry, it will eat you alive. And so you have to, the team is finding the right people. So we’ve had so many challenges and finding the right people. Um, but, but yeah, I mean the scale, the trying to be able to do it on such a scale, you know, for us, it’s, it’s global, you know, we got back from a shoot that was in Europe during COVID, you know? Um, and so you have to be able to, you know, work with a team that, I mean, one of our core values is do the impossible because all of our clients, all of them are, you know, if you asked them when they want something it’s always yesterday, it’s always tomorrow, or can you do it now?

Joshua Miller (10:34):

So we’ve had to really adapt and find people that are diverse, have different perspectives from us, but we all kind of share the same level of, you know, our work ethic, um, and our commitment to quality. So, but I do agree with you creative. It’s not easy work. It’s not that we just sit back and we’re like, oh, let the ideas come to me. No, if, uh, you know, you really, we, we all, we also don’t call ourselves creative, who we call ourselves professionals, uh, creatives need to be inspired to work. Uh, the professional professionals can work anytime of day. Anytime at night, we don’t need to, we don’t need to have all the, the candles and the right professionals can create because we’re professionals, uh, creative need to be inspired. Uh, inspiration certainly helps, but you know, you need, when you need something done really well, it’s time to call a pro.

Kevin L. Jackson (11:25):

No, I’ve never really heard it put that way, but it makes a lot of sense. Um, and I tell you, Josh have been really scheming to have you on my show since I kind of met you in Miami, he saved the world set. I saw you working hard, but you’re so busy. I’ve never got a chance to actually talk to you. That was your wife, Amy that told me about fun black tech, and really gotten me gone. Uh, and really, I guess she inspired me. Maybe I’m not a professional, but how is she doing?

Joshua Miller (12:06):

I mean, she’s doing great. Like all things. She is the megaphone to the studio. And just like that, I’m usually busy on some set somewhere. And Amy’s always the first to say, hold on you, you, you actually need to meet Josh or Josh would love to talk. I would love to talk with somebody. People we’re always doing so much stuff, but no, Amy is literally the glue, but between, uh, just like a lot of people on the team, but she’s the glue, uh, for a bunch of different productions that we do. Um, and, um, and our executive team, but, you know, they’re just, they’re so good at that kind of stuff. So she’s doing great. She’s been producing, I mean, so much stuff, uh, fund black tech that you mentioned, she’s one of the producers on that and flying us to all these different places, finding locations to fit them.

Joshua Miller (12:47):

If that’s the, you know, everyone thinks it’s fun to make this. It is, it is brutal. Uh, there’s so much hard work. I tell people on social media, the studio looks so fun and it looks inspirational and it looks like we have a blast and that’s true, but what’s not on social media is the, just the gut wrenching stress and the amount of work. The 2:00 AM 3:00 AM just working and just to hit a goal that’s not on there. And, um, and so, like I said, you got to really love it. Um, but no, she does a great job. And I’m so thankful that she met you. And, um, There were so many people there, but she was like, you gotta meet Josh, you gotta meet Kevin. Okay. Like, it was like the next day I was like, did you meet him? I’m like, no,

Kevin L. Jackson (13:40):

Thank you. But I’ll tell you, you are working hard then down in Miami, you didn’t meet that sun to be sweating. Cause that’s, so you run it up there and running back back, and last week they had their premiere. So, uh, from a director point of view, how do you feel I had part one, uh, last week and part two this week. Are you, uh, is there a smile on your face?

Joshua Miller (14:08):

Well, I will say this is really cool. Every time that we work on something as a team and it gets released, I don’t think people, people always say like, oh, this is a really bad movie. Or everyone has seen bad movies, but it’s really tough for, to be in the industry and say, something’s bad. Cause you know, the, the amount of drama and headache that went to making that bad. So I will say like, it’s a, it’s a big congratulations to, I mean, some films get done and they stop and they never come to light. So the fact that it’s created, it’s done and it got released as cool. It’s always cool to see our work out there. Um, I haven’t had the chance to actually watch it if we’re being it. Uh, we have been on, we have been, do we have been in the process of putting fun black texts first, uh, um, you know, trailer together. So I haven’t had a moment till everyone’s like, have you seen this movie? I’ve seen that. Like, I haven’t seen anything. Um, but no, it’s great to see anything that we work on. So many people worked on that really, really hard for those four days. Um, and I’ll tell you a little secret is, uh, the crew here caused that show four days, the kill CNI.

Joshua Miller (15:20):

It was cause you know, 16, 20 hour days for four days, we were, it was, we were ready. It was great when we got to sleep after that.

Kevin L. Jackson (15:28):

Yeah. So for our audience for days the same, the world, you can catch it on apple TV, it’s on Android. Um, it’s also on Ruku and online. So, um, look for four days to save the world, you can see some of the Joshua’s work. So, so Joshua fund, black tech, how did that actually get started? I tell you when I heard about that, it was like what took so long?

Joshua Miller (15:58):

Oh man. Yeah. Um, I, I think, I can’t remember, uh, Sarah would know, um, but, uh, I think it was like 2018 or 2017 or something like that. We were working with magic leap. Um, and we were doing a bunch of all their creative and a bunch of other stuff. We met a lot of really great people there. The CEO and founder magic magically, uh, Roni. We just, I don’t know, man, we just, we’re just kindred spirits. And we worked on so many projects there. Um, and um, and since then he appointed a new CEO and he’s been working on other stuff and we just reconnected and he was like, I was like, what are you doing? And, and, um, he was just talking about, he came back from this conference and these is a really, if you don’t know Ron, he’s like just a really cool dude.

Joshua Miller (16:39):

Like he’s got such a good heart. Um, and he was like, I was at this conference, Josh, and you’re just kind of upset. I was like, what’s going on? And he’s like, I was like this conference, there was this like 500 CEOs. All of them are white. There was one woman. And, uh, I need to just bothered. And I was like, that’s crazy. And he was like, it’s weird that the tech space acts like it’s still caught up in the 18 hundreds. And that like stuck with me because I just think about like issues in our world, especially how divided everything is right now. People don’t like, I’ll say this. Like Amy’s parents, like, um, they used to eat meat and people there, you know, some of Amy’s sisters feel like you guys should be vegan and you should be vegetarians. And they all have these conversations years, and years and years, you should try to convince them.

Joshua Miller (17:23):

It never worked. They watched one documentary and like the next day they were like, we’re going to be vegetarians now. Um, that stuck with me, it’s like the power of media. So every time I hear stuff, like Ronnie’s, he mentioned, I think, how do you, how do you change something? I, you know, I, you know, my parents aren’t rich, you know, I don’t have, I don’t have money like that. So you think like you can’t really do anything, but, but for us, like the ability to tell a story, um, is huge. So he said that, and I was like a few meetings later. I was like, yo, we have to make this into a documentary. Now it’s been turned into a docu series. Um, but, um, it’s just about how can we, how, why is this a problem? Like why ha like, if you think about black and brown people in sports, the NBA, the NFL, if you think of Kamala Harris, you know, Barack Obama, if you think about the music industry, if you think about all these industries, you see black, brown people, women, just artists have just progressed.

Joshua Miller (18:19):

Then you get to the tech industry and Silicon valley and you have to be two things to be in that industry. And you have to be a man and you have to be white. Um, and it is shocking to me that that’s how it is. So that kind of, that kind of made us continue to think like, well, what is that? Black people not have good ideas? Do women not know anything about tech? Um, all those things aren’t true. So it’s like, well, why isn’t this happening? And none of us have the answer. So it was like, all right, we’re going to go on this journey. And, um, and we’ve got to talk to some of the most brilliant minds in my opinion, uh, that I’ve able to meet yours, included Kevin and set, sit down with some people and interview them and just find out why, because at the end of the day, there is no good answer.

Joshua Miller (19:07):

So if there isn’t a good answer, then we should just fund black tech or just the idea, uh, that and stuff that we’ve heard on this journey has kind of crazy. But we think honestly, instead of getting up on like a megaphone and trying to tell people, Hey, this is what you need to do or writing a blog. We think people hear best when they’re not challenged by other people. Like if you’re watching a film, uh, you know, you feel like you’re and you feel impacted by that film. You feel like you came up with that yourself. Um, you don’t feel like someone, you know, someone’s arguing with you about politics and you’re like, okay, I believe you. But it’s kind of these moments when you’re by yourself taking something in watching something and you feel something, uh, is where I think changes. And so our whole mission is like, can we get people to see this different world and feel something different? Um, because I do think that the majority of people are good. I don’t think sometimes they know what to do or how to express themselves. But I do think that when people are, when they, when people hear certain things, they’re like compelled to be better. Um, so, uh, that’s kind of our methodology behind this thing. Wow.

Kelly Barner (20:24):

Now, given that this is an interview based documentary, it’s not like you’re writing a script. I mean, you are, I’m sure carefully selecting the people that you bring in, you have some sense of what their expertise is or what their perspective might be, but what is the process for you? Like trying to have this big picture vision, but then bring in people without knowing precisely in advance what they’re going to say, but sort of making sure that the whole idea comes together into one code.

Joshua Miller (20:53):

Yeah. I mean, that’s, uh, that’s you just asked the million dollar question, um, for us, like I’ve got, you know, uh, Beth Bryant is one of our producers, Sarah, Dreyer’s one of our producers, Amy, of course. And I just, I just have, and obviously Ronnie, we’ve just been able to, our whole methodology has just been like, I think we need to wing it. And we’re trying to put together outlines and figure out how we should do it. We just wanted to go talk to people and just hear their stories. Some people we thought like, these are the questions that I want to ask Kevin, these are the questions that I want to ask John Amaechi. Um, but in a lot of times I want to ask them the same question to see the, just that alone, um, asking everyone about what the role black women play in tech.

Joshua Miller (21:36):

I mean, every answer is different. Uh, and so that is really interesting to us. So we just kind of went out, our goal was go out on a fact, finding mission, be prepared, but don’t be prepared, save room for magic to happen. Um, and every interview, I mean, I’ve had my jaw drop, just, I think it’s going somewhere. And then someone says something different and you know, and you think, you know, about society and what people have gone in your jaw. My jaw just drops every interview I’ve done about 15 of them now, some international, some here, all across America. Um, but I think the, the, the, the real challenges when I handed over to, uh, my two brilliant editors, uh, Kai Ettrick and, and Andras Colona, I basically just say, Hey guys, here, this mounds of data that we have collected, and they start to sift through and find these moments.

Joshua Miller (22:30):

And once we start doing that, that’s when we really start building the shows. And I think it’s more about what do we need to collect, but I think the magic is in the editing process when we that’s, when we start to connect it up. So for me, I get to have a lot of fun when I get to interview people and ask questions. So just kind of get to know them. If you get to know people and ask questions, they, they share, people want to share their knowledge, share what they’ve been through. Um, and then we have the hard work when we come in and stare at, uh, editing screens for hours and hours.

Kelly Barner (23:00):

No, I don’t want to make you do a spoiler alert, but are there any moments so far from these interviews that either really stand out in your mind as being particularly impactful or surprising, or potentially even changed the narrative arc that the docu-series will end up taking?

Joshua Miller (23:19):

Yeah. I mean, there’s been a lot, um, like we, I mean, I, like I said, every interview has been absolutely mind blowing. I do think that when you there’s been a lot of conversations with, um, like I have like CNS really good verse. Like my executive team is like, you know, it’s me, my brother runs our, the whole company. Um, and then we have two, uh, executive Sarah and Beth that I mentioned. So we’re super diverse. Like, um, we’ve a lot of women in leadership seeing that I think changed the whole documentary. Like, it was like, yo fun, black tech. And then it was like, okay, let’s talk about black women. Let’s talk about women. Then we start with the Asian community and we’re like, hold on. What? So it’s really opened up so much that I didn’t really see at first. Um, and, um, and I think that’s been pretty, and I think that’s been really unique in the, in Inn, but hearing, I think hearing how I think quite frankly, the thing that has struck me the most is like hearing how black women are viewed in tech, but also just society at large.

Joshua Miller (24:27):

It’s probably been one of the craziest things that I’ve ever I’ve ever like, thought about and heard. And we were just, I think I, I don’t, man. I wish Sarah was here, but she would tell me, I was just meeting with someone, but I’m just talking about the role. Like you wouldn’t hear about George Floyd, if it wasn’t for a black woman, you know, it was a black woman that shot that video. It was a black woman that was like introduced to tech. It’s not her first video. She didn’t just get an iPhone. It’s like, how do I use this? Oh, God, what’s happening. She’s super involved in tech and content creation and media and into the tech industry. If had it not been for her, there is none of this corporate diversity, you know, Netflix putting up, you know, all this stuff. There’s none of that, man.

Joshua Miller (25:09):

So I feel like that, you know, the role of black women that they play in the society, I think has been, I say, black women, but I’m also talking about women in general. Cause I really feel like, I mean, women get the end of the stick, uh, in America. And, and, and obviously in the tech industry, like you’re really good to buy our products and women control the household income period. Like we will control women, we will control what you eat, what you sleep on. Like women control it, but don’t, you dare try to start a company like, don’t, you dare try to ask for funding. You can’t do that. But, so it’s been interesting. It’s been interesting to like, hear that. And, um, and, um, so, uh, I think that’s been the thing that’s been the most eye opening. Wow.

Kevin L. Jackson (25:54):

So one of the things I wanted to highlight, I mean, you’ve talked about it that this is not a, an American thing, right? This is an international thing. And I want to just start out a Chang from Canada. I wanted to invite you to, uh, you know, maybe a comment in the stream, you know, is this the same viewpoint, uh, from, uh, north of the border? And, uh, a goodie says doing what you love is awesome as absolutely true. Um, so, uh, the other thing is having the right amount of crazy. I’m going to have to use that, you know, how do you put that on your resume? You know, I have the right amount of crazy.

Joshua Miller (26:51):

I think it sounds wild, but it’s actually quantifiable. It’s like the right amount of crazy is I do what I say I’m going to do. And that’s really it like, cause that means that like I’m stubborn enough to my word means something and I’m stubborn enough to make sure I can do whatever I’m going to. You’re no I’m going to make it happen. Um, and so that’s kind of how the methodology for our studio and myself personally, you got to have a little bit of like Novo can’t we can, we do it at 3:00 AM, but

Joshua Miller (27:23):

We don’t want to, but, and we like take yourself to that kind of crazy. Um, I think that can help you, especially in this industry where you get a lot of notes and a lot of changes, especially when we work in, like we’re working with a news client right now, you get a lot of that stuff. Last minute, it comes in. Most of our clients are doing a job are running companies. So when they’re ready to work on or give you notes on your thing, it’s eight, o’clock nine, o’clock 10, o’clock, 11 o’clock at night. That’s what made us scale to LA to be quite honest, how can we go? How can we have a team in LA that now I have more hours time zones. There’s actually only like four hours out of the day. We’re seeing, I can’t operate in between the hours of two and six.

Joshua Miller (28:08):

That’s it, but any other time, like we’re in full swing. So, um, uh, but yeah, that’s been a, that’s been a huge help for us, but I don’t know. You have to, you, you, you, I dunno, you just gotta keep yourself fresh and surround yourself with some really great people. But I think the biggest thing for us is having a team that feels the same goals as you. Um, that’s been hard and it’s been hard through the, through the pandemic. It’s been hard through some of the, the, uh, political woes. We’ve lost. Some people gained some great people, but yeah, you gotta have a team that is on that sees the same thing. Uh, that’s kind of crucial and that makes you a little crazy.

Kevin L. Jackson (28:44):

So it’s about having that Kendrick spirit on the team.

Joshua Miller (28:48):

Yeah. I mean, cause that’s the stuff that, cause you’re fighting for each other, uh, you know, you fight for each other. There’s a deadline, of course there’s a client, but you’re really fighting for each other and you know, and keeping your word and your art. And so, uh, the kindred spirits, a big deal.

Kevin L. Jackson (29:03):

So Kelly yesterday, you had a really interesting question to ask Joshua.

Kelly Barner (29:08):

I do. So Joshua I’m from the procurement space. I’ve, I’ve worked in this space for almost 20 years. Um, I can tell you from my very earliest days as a practitioner is supplier diversity is not new, but in 2020, because of George Floyd and black lives matter and all of the movement and the exposure and the attention that was drawn, we sort of ratcheted to the next level of urgency around these programs. Now you might think on the surface, that’s just flat out good news, but I’ve been around. And I guess my concern is for companies that actually want to make a difference around the diversity of the people that work and are supported by their supply base. How can they make sure that what they’re doing goes beyond first of all, just patting themselves on the back. And second of all saying, oh, for this month, I’m gonna change my corporate logo to black. And for this month, I’m going to make it a rainbow. It doesn’t that make me so fulfilled. Right? How many jobs did you create? How many real hard conversations did you have, you know, either from the interviews, from the fund black tech documentary or from your own personal experience, can you speak to the procurement community, speak to the people that have been tasked with actually driving meaningful change around the diversity of ownership and workforce and board membership in corporations and how we can make sure that this is not sort of a flash moment in time, how this is actually a pivot that we’re able to see?

Joshua Miller (30:46):

Yeah. I mean, that’s just everything that I talk about on a daily basis. I mean, I, when you, when I, after Georgia, Florida, I saw everything that you were saying, you know, the logos, everyone had their statement. It was almost like if you don’t have a statement, there’s a problem. They said something, oh, put ours up. What are we saying? Like, um, I feel like that’s a question that I do ask to people. No, one’s asked me. So thank you, Kelly. Um,

Kelly Barner (31:14):

I’m lucky. Yeah.

Joshua Miller (31:15):

I, uh, I think a lot of companies have put out these statements and changed their logos. Um, I think just to, uh, make sure they check the box, uh, we did it, um, you know, make sure we have the whatever number is okay of, uh, you know, minority, you know, um, staff members or w what I think a lot of people do stuff just to check the box. But I do think some companies on the other side are like really sitting back and saying, this is not cool. Um, we, and some, uh, you know, that’s, self-reflection, I think, um, you know, is a, is a big deal. Here’s what I think though about, uh, that first group of companies it’s like, people can see through that lip service, we can see through it. Um, and I think employees of a company can feel it too.

Joshua Miller (32:05):

So I think the data really matters. You can’t say women matter, if not a lot of women work there, no women are in, uh, executive level positions. Can’t really figure out the last time a woman was promoted. Um, you could say that out front, but I think the data really matters. I also think that companies are really missing a big key is like, people obviously need money to operate, but that’s not why they operate. And so you will have employees of some of these larger conglomerates. People want to be attached to something. People want to be a part of something. So I think there’s a real missed opportunity to say, you know, for these larger companies that say, Hey, I think black people matter, gay people matter, um, women matter, but we’re not going to stop there. This is what we’re going to do about it.

Joshua Miller (32:56):

I think if you did that, you would have this outpouring of support, love and commitment from your staff that you haven’t seen before. But I think the biggest thing is if you’re really doing it, like, like Ben and Jerry’s is they’re always out front first, like you could tell it’s like who they are. It’s a part of their company. They’re not just doing it for anybody else. Um, and so I think like if you’re doing that, you inherently, if you, if we are more diverse, really diverse, if we’re really looking out after people and different perspectives and backgrounds, your company will make more money period. And I think if people, if executives and board members really thought that they see it as an endurance, they see it as, I don’t know where we gonna lose something. What do you know it’s really about, if you, if you, the more diverse people you have around you, the more your company can reach out to those, uh, different, you know, uh, demographics that you weren’t able to in the right way.

Joshua Miller (33:54):

And I see some of these things that come out like that Pepsi ad with Kendall Jenner, and that comes to mind and you’re like, man, this is a, or like, you know, there’s a, these tech devices that don’t work on black skin. It’s like, man, you guys just didn’t even have someone black or a woman in the room to test, to test it in a white people that works great, but you never tested on anyone with dark skin. So WIC that facial recognition doesn’t even work. It’s like, and so I think if we, if you actually, if you actually do that, um, I think that it actually helps your company, like with your staff. I think it makes you more money. Um, and I also, it holds, it holds you to a, um, like a moral, I think, uh, uh, and the accountability that I think some of these really large companies have to move the needle.

Joshua Miller (34:44):

Um, and I think we’re missing it. Like, I think apple and Google and, um, you know, and IBM, these, they have a role to play in America. It’s not just money. It’s like, you can really shape America with the moves that you make or the moves that you don’t make. Right. You can say certain things are okay. Like when you really hire that new head coach, it should be on merit. For sure. I don’t ever want a directing job because, oh, that’s the black guy and we need somebody. Um, I don’t want the directing job because I’m the, I’m the best director for that gig. Um, but also it looks really weird. It started to look really weird with the Oscars and, you know, it’s like, man, like nothing, no, nobody. And so I think you have to really want it, like, if you don’t want the diversity, if you’re, if you don’t really care, what Muslim women go through, then, you know, you’re just going to put up a thing you’re going to black lives matter.

Joshua Miller (35:38):

Um, you know, just say, but if you really want it, um, you know, I think that you will charge your staff, uh, uh, with why you want it. And that’s got to come from the board down CEO down, not just like, Hey guys, if you could really throw in some people of color, that would be really awesome. Um, I’d be like, well, why don’t we want people of color and, and people of color like shape the way that we do quite a lot. Um, and so it would almost be specific like, like why would we abandon the, the, the, the voice of a woman? Why would be the fandom, but voice of a younger generation or older generation, like, why wouldn’t you want all that to be a part of your company? So, um, I don’t know. I, it, people change like when they want to change. Right. So, yeah.

Kelly Barner (36:25):

And the challenge like we were saying before is one of scale, right? I mean, you, you talk about these incredibly large corporations. They have tens of thousands of suppliers. And so the reality of saying, okay, we want, you know, X number X percent, or this amount of the spend you sort of by necessity have to go to things like, okay, who’s certified, but if you’re even a relatively small to medium-sized business, the time and the cost of getting certified, right. And it’s, that’s a reality. So I’m a woman owned business. I’m not certified. Therefore I do not count towards those metrics. So to me, if you’re really trying to move the needle, it’s okay. Big company, you have legal people like stacked in hallways. How many deserving companies did you help get certified this year? To me, that’s when you focus on the why it’s less about, oh, how fabulous does my logo look in this month? You know, color palette, right? It’s more about what are the stories that I can tell about the impact that I made. The number may be smaller, but that’s at least in my opinion, how we actually start.

Joshua Miller (37:29):

Yeah, you’re smart. You’re spot on there. You’re spot on there. And it’s just gotta be like, is this the data, the opportunity to just have to be there? Um, and if you really want it, you’ll do it. If you really want it, like, you will do it. If you don’t, then it’s just vanity and it’ll be what it’ll be. But, and I think you have both people on both sides that do think you have big companies that don’t care. And I do think you have some companies that are just like, man, we need to like, think about this and adapt and change. And, and I think, um, and, uh, and I also think there needs to be grace as people try to figure that out.

Kelly Barner (37:58):

Um, absolutely grace and benefit of the doubt

Kevin L. Jackson (38:01):

I tell you, look what look who we have on the other side of the screen that you are resonating with. So Scott, not words you have to act.

Joshua Miller (38:16):

That’s true.

Kevin L. Jackson (38:18):

I’m really, uh, I was really, you know, riveted, when you were talking about the importance of diversity in companies, there have been studies, um, that prove that diverse staff, diverse, uh, members of the C-suite all critical to improved revenue and improved profit. But the other thing that it hot, those studies highlighted is fact change, change management companies need to have different worldviews in order to react to change. And in the past change has been slow. I mean, it took hundreds and hundreds of years for business to change, but in today’s world, businesses change their business model like in minutes and seconds, and they create products for a marketplace of one, the personalization. But, um, if, if that didn’t change these companies view of diversity, how do you expect the documentary to have any impact on diversity in, in detect industry or in any industry? If, if money doesn’t make a capitalist change? What?

Joshua Miller (39:46):

Yeah. Um, solid question. I think companies, um, I mean, I think some, I think some companies, um, I think they’ve really, I mean, as, as we’ve been on this journey with this documentary, we’ve talked to so many different people, um, that own, their own companies started their own companies, founded them. I think that for us, what we want from it, I mean, I, I mean, it’s just the knowledge I, like I said, I think people are inherently good when, uh, Ava released a documentary called the central park five. And, um, obviously I remember when the central park five that actually happened to these, these five, these five kids who were sent to prison for this crime. It did not commit. They just were released from prison. Like, you know, I don’t know, a couple years ago or something, um, Ava released that documentary and I had so many people come up to me and just say, oh man, I saw that.

Joshua Miller (40:38):

I didn’t even know this happened. Like that’s crazy. And then it was kind of like was at first it was like upsetting. Cause it’s was like, how did you not know this happen? Um, but I think the beautiful thing that documentary did is some people just actually don’t know cause it’s not their world. And that’s what I really agree with you. It was one of my favorite things that you said when we interviewed you is, um, talking about worldviews. People only know what they know, and it’s a little hard for them to see something different. Um, so the beautiful thing that came out of Ava’s documentary is people knew that these, this happened, like it was, there was a world of people that not that they didn’t agree with it, they just actually didn’t know what happened. So there are people in the tech industry, there’s people that talk to me and I’m sure talk to you, Kevin, uh, and probably you Kelly and say, oh, like someone, you know, the other people have Josh, has anyone ever been racist to you?

Joshua Miller (41:28):

Uh, Kelly, is it hard to be a woman in the workplace? It’s like, are you drunk? Like, absolutely everyone has a story, but, but people don’t people think that it doesn’t hit them. Like, um, COVID is not real until it hits you personally and you have suffered a loss and then it becomes much more real for you. Um, but I think like companies have a, there’s a responsibility that I think companies can play in having people change. You’ve got a lot of people in the Midwest. Do you have a lot of people that they, they, you know, black people aren’t everywhere. Haven’t seen a gay person ever. So they don’t, their world is shaped around what they see. So you go put an Amazon headquarters in Idaho, you put an apple headquarters and you start to see those places get diverse, very diverse, which impacts those communities worldview. And I think that’s how you really start to shape communities and have people see something differently. Um, but until people are exposed to, you know, like, uh, I guess I’ll use my life as an example. I was born in Alabama. I don’t tell people that I tell people I was, I was raised in DC. Alabama just has a connotation of all the things you think Alabama is. It is.

Joshua Miller (42:43):

But, um, I didn’t see, I didn’t see or know white people until I moved to my, my dad, thank God, saved our lives, move this to Washington DC education. He’s just one of the coolest dudes. I know. Uh, but that’s when I was in fifth grade. So I’m 10. I didn’t really know white people until I was 10 years old. So my idea of white people were that you were just the enemy. Like that’s all that I saw. That’s all I was around. Like I grew up in Birmingham and Montgomery and the bad parts at the good parts. So my idea and what I saw was not positive ever. Um, and so when I came to, uh, uh, DC, I remember being in school and be like, oh, these people are nice. Like mom there, I don’t, they are like very nice. This boy, he’s like one of my good friends and you know, and like, but it took that environment shift.

Joshua Miller (43:31):

And I think it reverses the other way too, that you don’t really, you have to really step out of yourselves, but companies have worked really hard to get to this place. If you think about apple and all these large companies, and IBM, they’ve worked to a place where it’s like, we’ve got it, we’ve made it, it’s working. Why would we change anything? You know, like we worked so hard, so why would we change our board members? Why don’t we change our seats? It’s working changes can be very, very scary for people, especially to people who have made it. But I think that there’s so much more opportunity for that is outside of money. Cause I don’t think it’s money for some of these people. Our hope for the documentary is that people know that this is an issue. Uh, that is something that I feel like we should be embarrassed by as a country.

Joshua Miller (44:15):

And it’s something that we need to change and, and we can change it. Like it is something that you can see and go, man, I don’t think maybe we should, we shouldn’t be wrongfully imprisoning people that didn’t do a crime. This is an opportunity for us to obviously do better here. Same thing in tech, uh, tech should be realizing we’re missing out on all these ideas. That means we’re missing out on money. And then also we’re missing out on making what our country should be for our kids and, and what we think it can be like we’re behind in so many different areas because we’re, we’re not elevate. I mean, if you close your eyes and think about like someone in Silicon valley or an engineer, you just, we all think of the same white dude with the pencils. Like, and so I think like we need to change the narrative of what we think a woman is and what she can do and what a black guy can do.

Joshua Miller (45:02):

Like once we start changing that and shaping, people’s worldviews to say, no, it can be this. I think that will really change things, but it’s got to come from a it’s tough because it’s got to come from a standpoint of you have to care. And I think a lot of people think that’s really not my problem, man. Someone else can go do that. And I think that mentality is what keeps us into where we are. I think we’ve seen the public pressure does work. I think whether or not you are authentic in your message that black lives matter. Like the people that put that out, it is pretty astonishing that the NFL still said that it’s pretty astonishing. That that message still went out. So I see it as a, uh, uh, some of these, some of these companies will see it as a disingenuous step, but still I see it as like, okay, the fact that you did that was a big deal.

Joshua Miller (45:52):

Maybe we can get you to actually care about it next time. I don’t know. But I see some of those things as a step in the right direction. So people walk away from this documentary feeling like, wow, okay, I need like, I’m a VC. Like I I’m, maybe, maybe we should think differently, but maybe don’t say that conversation to anybody else, but maybe the next time a black woman walks into your office talking about an idea. Maybe you listen a little bit longer. And, uh, and that that’s, I guess our goal, um, obviously we want peoples and these ideas to get funded, but I think listening and really hearing the heart of an issue, I think is what we want the most.

Kelly Barner (46:26):

And Joshua, you know, we, we take our roles here at supply chain now very seriously, right? Just like you take your role very seriously. And so, you know, even for preparation in preparation for meeting with you today, I did my research and I’ve watched some other interviews with you. And one of the points that I love that I think probably gets glossed over is you spoke about listening to understand, right? And it’s sort of like the difference between listening and hearing. It’s, it’s not even in the same ball field, right? It’s completely different things. I hear that sound that you’re making right now, but it’s sort of like floating me somewhere. It’s not changing my day. If I hear you, that’s a step better. But I think actively listening to understand with the goal being to, if I have to make you back up or say it again, or give me another example, you know, when we think about the soft skills and the empathy that are going to be required in every single role in our society, from corporate leadership to individual contributor roles, to people who are working and social and, and government type positions, listening to understand is so critical as someone who is constantly interviewing, can you give us any, not to bring it down to steps, but can you give us any practical tips or guidance for people that regardless of what their work is or what their family situation is, are trying to improve their ability to listen to?

Joshua Miller (47:53):

Yeah, we, we, uh, man, fabulous question. We got to stop responding. I think that’s the thing. People listen, just to see like, oh, you’re talking about that. Well, I’m gonna respond with this. Um,

Joshua Miller (48:11):

We listen so we can have a response. Will you set that? We’ll we’re gonna respond. I don’t. I mean, I think people just need to, someone says something, especially that’s difficult, man. You gotta reward them for that. Like I think just really, I think we gloss over, like I said, something challenging to you. You think I’m a jerk because I said that it was like, man, I don’t want to say that. It took, it was really hard for me to even say, so it was like realizing that yo, someone just came it’s in this day and age. Like when we, like, I don’t know, we call our generation like the last generation that played outside.

Joshua Miller (48:46):

We like, you know, like this generation is just like, you know, they, they do so much of this that they, they can’t, they think any type of confrontation is negative. They, they, they, they just view, like if I’m talking to you this way, it’s, it’s hard. Um, but I think we, I think, um, we need to have more of those interactions, but really it’s just stop listening to respond. Like when someone tells you something that’s difficult, just sit back and think about like, yo, like what are they saying? I try to repeat that stuff in my head a little bit. And then I try to let them know, like, I hear what you’re saying, but not saying, I hear what you’re saying. I try to say it back to them. Um, and I said, you know, so what you’re really saying is like, you feel like dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And they’re like, yeah. So that makes you feel blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know? And I think that the people operate we’re creatures. We’re like organisms. So like, we’re like, we’re not like rigid we’re we want community. We want to be understood and felt there’s feelings. I don’t feel good about this person. So feelings really matter. That’s why filmmaking is so impactful for me to produce a feeling, not like a result. Um Hmm.

Kevin L. Jackson (49:58):

Uh, emotion in the audience. And I tell you, you must be B, you must be challenging our audience. You’re getting me emotion. We have a LinkedIn. He used, uh, we didn’t get a name on this one here, here. So I mean, you, you, you must be actually driving these, uh, these responses. You’re, you’re challenging their thoughts. We Mohammad from, uh, uh, saying, thank you very much, sir. So you are definitely getting thanked. Right. You know, people appreciating what you’re saying. So, yeah.

Joshua Miller (50:40):

I mean, I re I appreciate that. I mean, I really feel like people just need to focus, just put your phone down, make ONC my guy contact, make a moment like, and I think you’d listen to people that people have, people have feelings and they’re trying to communicate them. And that in this day and age, that could be very difficult. And so I think if you really listen to understand, you will like in this country so divided, but man, there’s actually so much that we probably agree on. If we just weren’t on social media, on Facebook, arguing about it. If I’m a parent, if I’m a parent and you’re a parent, we both want our kids to be safe. We’re going to agree on so much stuff like that. But I think the platforms make us so divided, but I really think that we need to kind of just slow down, stop responding, and start to think about what is the other person trying to say.

Joshua Miller (51:24):

And then also my favorite one is how much of your time do you want to waste? Because if you just keep responding back and forth, get ready to waste all of your time. If you actually want to move this thing forward, hear what they’re saying and talk to them. Like you hear what they’re saying, even if you don’t agree with them, you know? So I think that’s been a, uh, I’m not perfect at it. Um, but I think, um, that’s what I think we need more of. And I think we just need more face to face. And I think that’s the scary part is social. Um, social produces a lot of beautiful things. Like my wife has somebody that she met in Mexico and they’re really great friends. They talk about kids up and that’s like, she would never had that relationship. But I think there’s also a lot of evil on social media as well.

Joshua Miller (52:08):

And, um, and I think, um, one of them is we think, anytime we talk to each other about anything challenging, that’s like bad and we shouldn’t have any of this negative energy. No, they’re, they’re like, you should really think about the people in your life that are telling you something challenging. You don’t have a lot of those people in your lives. That’s important. Keep those people, um, don’t know, shun those people. They had the courage to tell you something about yourself. You need them, you don’t need to exile them. And I think social media were just like unfollow, exile. You don’t agree with me.

Kevin L. Jackson (52:38):

I’ve been drawn to, you’re going to get us in trouble because that conversation by itself is going to make us go full another hour, but running out of time and stuff is starting to pop up. So, so, so Joshua, when will we get the final product from a black tech then? And how can my audience, how can our audience learn more about this? Uh, clearly fascinating topic?

Joshua Miller (53:06):

Well, I’m super excited about it from black tech is about the tech space, but it’s also just about culture. So I feel like if you don’t know tech or like tech or know you would like this, it’s so entertaining. We’re about to drop the first trailer for fun black tech. I want to say that’s going to be in a couple of weeks here. I don’t even know if I should be saying that, but I think it’s, I think it would be, but, um, I think we’re going to drop it in a couple of weeks. So I think just, uh, we’re obviously going to, if you’re following Kevin, uh, I think, uh, just, you know, he’s obviously going to be tagged in it. You’re in the trailer. Your part is fantastic. And then I think you’re going to start to see, uh, different episodes rollout. So, uh, the first thing is like check the website and check, um, social media we are going to put the trailer there first. Um, and I think everyone will be pretty happy with how, uh, this thing is coming out.

Kevin L. Jackson (53:55):

Wow. I can’t, I can’t wait. But, um, on that note, uh, I think we’re going to have to have you back for a part two jobs.

Joshua Miller (54:07):

Thank you, Joshua. We appreciate your time today. You guys so much. I really appreciate that. Thank you guys.

Kevin L. Jackson (54:12):

Yeah. And on that note, please just check out the wide variety of industry thought leadership that we have@supplychaindown.com. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. And on behalf of the entire team here at supply chain. Now this is Kevin L. Jackson and Kelly Barner wishing all of our listeners at bright and transformational future. We’ll see you next time on digital transformers and dial P four for Germany. Thanks everyone.

Intro/Outro (54:46):

Thanks for being a part of our supply chain. Now community check out all of our programming@supplychainnow.com and make sure you subscribe to supply chain. Now anywhere you listen to podcasts and follow us on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. See you next time on supply chain now.