We train African giant pouch rats for a whole range of humanitarian purposes. We're most famous for our rats that are detecting landmines and other explosives. A lot of this work is done in Cambodia, but we are also working in Zimbabwe, and we have worked in Mozambique, which is now landmine free.
-Isabelle Szott, Behavioural Researcher at APOPO
Episode Summary
Isabelle Szott is a behavioral researcher at APOPO in Tanzania. In this episode of Logistics with Purpose, Isabelle joins host Enrique Alvarez to talk about how humans are studying animal behavior to better understand how they are impacted by different conditions in their environment. She also describes the work being done to train African giant pouch rats as landmine detectors, as rescue search animals, and as scent detection animals to monitor the contents of shipping containers.
Episode Transcript
Intro/Outro (00:02):
Welcome to Logistics with Purpose presented by Vector Global Logistics. In partnership with Supply Chain. Now we spotlight and celebrate organizations who are dedicated to creating a positive impact. Join us for this behind the scenes glimpse of the origin stories change, making progress and future plans of organizations who are actively making a difference. Our goal isn’t just to entertain you, but to inspire you to go out and change the world. And now here’s today’s episode of Logistics with Purpose.
Enrique Alvarez (00:34):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Logistics with Purpose. I’m generally excited today cuz we’re gonna be talking about topic that’s very unique, uh, and with someone that knows a lot, a lot about, uh, this animals that I’ll she’ll tell us a little bit more in a second. But before, before I do that, let me just introduce you all to Izzy Szott behavioral researcher at apopo, and she’s in Tanzania right now. Isi, how are you doing? Good morning.
Isabelle Szott (01:05):
I am good. Good afternoon. How are you? <laugh>?
Enrique Alvarez (01:08):
Well, thank you. Good afternoon to you. Morning to everyone in this side of the world and, uh, could be evening, morning, or uh, um, yeah, afternoon for a lot of people listening to us, so thanks for coming to the show. This is amazing.
Isabelle Szott (01:23):
Thank you for having me.
Enrique Alvarez (01:25):
Well, before we deep dive into what your do and what your organization does, which is amazing, could you tell us a little bit more about, about yourself? Tell us a little bit more about where you grew up and how was your childhood like?
Isabelle Szott (01:36):
So, I am, uh, based in Tanzania, in Morogoro. Um, but I am originally from Germany. Um, I grew up in Heidelberg, which is a, a small-ish town in the southwest of Germany. Um, and, um, you know, grew up, um, always loved being outdoors and, and, and, you know, always had pets. Um, but I did a lot of dancing growing up, um, and horseback riding. So really enjoyed those things. Did school cuz I had to <laugh> <laugh>.
Enrique Alvarez (02:08):
We all did that, I guess.
Isabelle Szott (02:10):
We all did. Um, but yeah, and, um, when I, when I finished school, I, I was a bit lost in, in terms of what to do next. Um, there were many, many opportunities and, and none of them seemed particularly right. I did a lot of internships and volunteering and travel. Um, and during my travel I did a lot of work with animals, um, and really, you know, discovered that that is what I wanted to do for a living. Um, so then
Enrique Alvarez (02:37):
I the love, the love for pets. And you said that you had some pets? Yes. Were there like dogs? Mm-hmm. Cats or you had other types of animals too?
Isabelle Szott (02:43):
I, um, we mostly have cats. Um, you know, lots of my best friends had dogs. Um, but the horseback riding, you know, growing up in stables, you’ve got lots of dogs and obviously the horses and donkeys, uh, around, um, so yeah. Um, alsos and, and I used to follow my cat around neighbor’s gardens, um, which <laugh> an odd thing to do as a kid. Um, but yeah, you’d encounter all sorts of things there. Um, well,
Enrique Alvarez (03:09):
It sounds like, yeah, it sounds, well it sounds like you’ve always had something like a connection, like a special connection, special bond with animals. Uh, do you remember something like a cool story, uh, when you were younger, um, that kind of started to give you some hints about, well, this is probably something I should do the rest of my life,
Isabelle Szott (03:27):
<laugh>? No. Um, so nothing young? Not, not really, no. It was, it really, I came to, I, I, you know, when I was very little, I wanted to be a vet, um, and then realize that that, you know, comes along with, uh, having to put animals down and, you know, a lot of heartbreak. And I was like, no, actually I don’t really wanna do this. So, um, you know, I think having animals in my life always sort of fulfilled that need for me to not actually question it much further. Um, and then, you know, when I traveled I, I and did all these internships and I did internships and hotels and with the radio and, um, all of that stuff, and it just wasn’t right. Um, and I never felt like I was getting the same thing back that I was getting when, when you’re interacting with an animal. Um, and, you know, traveling and seeing animals across the world in the wild was just so fascinating. And, and, you know, of course, um, having that passion for it, you know, getting involved in conservation and, and, you know, trying to do more there, um, really was something that showed me that’s, that’s where I wanna go. I really wanna do this full-time, um, and not just, you know, have it on the side.
Enrique Alvarez (04:35):
And it sounds like you not only kind of like the animals, but the behavior, I mean, you were very interested in, in their behavior. Right. Tell us a little bit more about that side of the, uh, I guess your, uh, interest in, in animals in general.
Isabelle Szott (04:47):
I think it’s a funny thing because often, you know, when you have pet pets, um, it’s very clear to you when your pet wants something. Um, and, and you know, when your pet looks at you a certain way and you’re like, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s time to go outside. Yes. Or you, yes, absolutely getting hungry. Um, but actually it’s quite, you know, pets can’t speak human. So it’s, it, it’s quite interesting when you try and quantify these behaviors into something that you know, is valid across species or even, you know, for, within a species. Um, so, and, and of course, you know, if you’re surrounded by people who share your opinion, that’s, you know, everything, of course they have a personality, but then at some point you’ll meet people who are like, no pets, don’t, animals don’t have personalities, and you know, we should, we don’t need to care so much. And, um, they’re so wrong and they’re <laugh>. Yeah,
Enrique Alvarez (05:36):
<laugh>, I, I have a dog. I love animals too, so I’m biased like you. But, uh, yes, they definitely have personalities. How can they say something like
Isabelle Szott (05:45):
That? Absolutely. Um, but that’s I thing where, where, where the science comes in and, you know, like doing the, the job doing it as a job is, you know, we are able to prove that animals have personalities now because, you know, really got gone down in the numbers and testing it over and over again and saying, well, look, here are the hard numbers. If you don’t believe in the, you know, emotional, you’re making this upside, um, then, you know, here’s the data. Don’t argue with the numbers. Exactly. Um, so I think that was something that, that, you know, going into animal behavior as a, as a topic really brought these two together. Um, I love to argue, um, <laugh> <laugh>, um, that’s a good thing to have as well. You know, you, you’re now arguing your point and your passion. Um, and, and yeah, that just really sort of fascinated me. And I, you know, after school when I took this time to travel and do internships, I, I came to university a little bit late, but, um, throughout my degree, I never had a doubt that I was doing the right thing. Um, so what did
Enrique Alvarez (06:47):
You, what did you, uh, study? Where did you
Isabelle Szott (06:49):
I studied, um, I did a bachelor’s degree in animal behavior. Um, so I did, um, all my university degrees in the uk, um, in, in England up in Liverpool, which is an amazing city. Um, and from that bachelor’s degree, which was quite broad, and it was more about, you know, how do we quantify animal behavior, how do we measure it, how do we record it and observe it and, you know, what experiments can we do and everything that goes in with that. Um, I then did a master’s degree where I studied, um, Reese MCs, um, which are a monkey. They’re, they’re quite commonly used for research, for biomedical research. Um, if you’ve ever been to Thailand or Southeast Asia, you will probably have encountered them in the temples. Um, and I worked with these monkeys and, um, trained them to look at different pictures to see how the attention to these images changes depending on how they were feeling. Um, and that was all part of developing a tool to measure welfare changes, to be able to pick up on when does my animal, uh, start to not feel so well and, and be able to tell that earlier enough so that we can,
Enrique Alvarez (07:56):
Based on the pictures that they were looking at.
Isabelle Szott (07:59):
Yes. Um, so basically what we didn’t, we showed them two pictures at the same time, and one of them was, um, uh, con specific. So another monkey that they didn’t know with a relatively neutral facial expression. And the other one is a threat face. And based on how you are feeling, it’s kind of re humans have this as well. Uh, it follows the principle of if you get up on the wrong side, um, you know, everything goes wrong that day. Yes. Everything, you know, from there it’s just downwards. And it’s because if you are in that mindset, you are more likely to focus on these negative things and it just spirals from there. And we all have this, and, you know, it changes between days, but if, you know, if you are not able to get out of this spiral, your, your welfare state will deteriorate know,
Enrique Alvarez (08:45):
But that’s what they’re saying, that you’re bringing up all these negative things to you, but you’re not really bringing them to you. You’re just the mindset and then you’re focusing on the things and making them
Isabelle Szott (08:53):
Exactly, exactly.
Enrique Alvarez (08:55):
Exponentially worse.
Isabelle Szott (08:57):
Exactly. So that’s what we looked at with the monkeys is like, which of these pictures are you focusing on today? And is it different tomorrow? Or, um, is it the same? And can we use that to pinpoint when there’s a change? And can we use that to say out that something’s happening here, we need to pay more attention to this animal, um, and, and do something now before it gets too late. Um, so that was a, a really interesting project. Um, and, and, you know, very, very interesting to work with a wild animal in captivity with these monkeys and captivity. Um, and, and, you know, click or train them like they loved us because we just came in with these pictures and all they had to do was sit there and look at them. They got lots of peanuts and raisins for it. Um, so for them it was just like a game that they would do with us. And, and, you know, it was very, very rewarding work.
Enrique Alvarez (09:44):
Um, do you, um, do you feel like the more you study all these different animals, the more you understand humans <laugh> is that they’re like, oh, maybe I can extract this from them and now I have better understanding of me as a person or some friend of those or someone?
Isabelle Szott (09:57):
Definitely. I think there’s a lot of concepts that, you know, apply across the board. Um, you know, understanding how our hormones affect us and, you know, how our cognition and and intention affects how we are coping with the world. And you know, what, like what, what does it mean to cope and when is it a good thing? And, you know, when is that influence of having to cope all the time actually getting bad? Um, it definitely helps you understand. Like, I had situations where I was like, ah, this is why I like to tidy up when I’m stressed.
Enrique Alvarez (10:27):
<laugh>. That’s awesome.
Isabelle Szott (10:29):
Um, yeah, so definitely, uh, I mean my, I I used to work at a restaurant and my boss there used to, um, call me an animal psychologist. Um, and you know, um, there are so many things in our lives that we share with animals, uh, and so many experiences that we share with other animals that, um, of course there are, um, things that you can, you know, relate to yourself or to people that you know, you know, the whole alpha <laugh> thing,
Enrique Alvarez (10:55):
That that could be a completely, uh, new episode. Right. I mean, we’ll probably have to reschedule another session for you to talk about that. Yes, absolutely. The pills. So after, after you were starting this monkeys, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what brought you slowly to the position with a PPO and kind of what made that connection?
Isabelle Szott (11:13):
So after I did my masters’s, I did a PhD, um, and there I actually went the opposite direction in terms of size of the animal and studied elephants. Um, and I was looking at, um, safari tourism. So if you were to go on a safari in Africa and you go down like in a big game drive vehicle and you’re taking pictures, what does that do to elephants? Um, and is, is the number of tourism that is happening in the area, does it present a stressor? Is it, you know, can it be stressful if there’s a lot of this happening? Um, so that was very different because it was with wild elephants. Um, so I didn’t interact with them or tried to train them. Um, I was just out there observing what they were doing, um, um, tracking their movements across the reserve. I collected a whole lot of elephant pill for hormone analysis,
Enrique Alvarez (11:59):
<laugh>,
Isabelle Szott (12:01):
Um, a whole chest freezer fault, um, to look at their stress hormones, um, and all of that. So that really was, you know, working like in, in a game reserve in South Africa and, and being based there and, and working with a wild animal in the wild. Um, but I mean, I think all of it came together with, you know, trying to do something that has a purpose and that, um, you know, is meaningful work, uh, that results in, in learning something that can, that can help in, in some kind of way. And of course, like for my, for my study degrees, it was very much focused on how can we help these species? Whereas what I am doing now is more how can these, how can this specific species I’m working with now help us, um, or help other animals? But yeah, I think that that’s, that’s a theme that that was always quite present and something that was always personally important to me to have this purpose, um, in, in my job,
Enrique Alvarez (12:58):
Which that switch is kinda like what connected, uh, us, uh, with you and your organization. And you’ll see everyone that’s listening so far, they’re like, well, supply chain, where is this coming <laugh>? And to play. And, and it will, I mean, just give us another second, uh, Easy’s gonna take us there. And, uh, so, and now apopo, right? So you went from the monkeys, you went to the bigger animals, the elephants, uh, in South Africa. And so you’re getting closer and closer. Did you know at this time that you wanted to shift gears a little bit and start helping humans as opposed to animals? Or not yet?
Isabelle Szott (13:34):
No.
Enrique Alvarez (13:34):
<laugh>. <laugh>. That’s awesome. Well, please go
Isabelle Szott (13:37):
From the beginning.
Enrique Alvarez (13:38):
<laugh> go, go on. Cuz I would like to hear a little bit more about how that happened.
Isabelle Szott (13:42):
I think, um, I finished my PhD, um, just about as like a little bit before the pandemic hit. Um, so it was a tough time to try and find a job. Um, so I was there and I, you know, I had my passion for, for Africa and for conservation and, and you know, seeking for this position that fulfills some kind of purpose. Um, so in, in all my jobs seeking that I did, I came across the, the, the position of behavioral researcher at apopo, um, and AK for, you know, I don’t think we’ve mentioned this, yes, but
Enrique Alvarez (14:16):
No, please. Purple is a ahead. Tell us more about what it is
Isabelle Szott (14:20):
<laugh>. So we’re a Belgian ngo, um, and we are, um, mainly based, uh, our biggest base is here in Tanzania where I am now. And we train African giant pouch rats for a whole range of humanitarian purposes. So we’re most famous and known for our rats that are detecting landmines, um, and, and other explosives. Um, a lot of this work is done in, in Cambodia, for example, but we are also working in, uh, Zimbabwe. We have been in Mozambique, which is now landmine free. Um, so, you know, that was the, the original, the original rat, um, was detecting t and t. Um, and since then, over the past few years, Apocco added things to this because really what we are working with is training these rats as scent detection animals. Um, and they have an amazing sense of smell. Um, it’s, you know, very comparable to that of dogs. Um, but our rats are a bit smaller and lighter. So for the landmines for example, that means that they can safely walk across this field where the landmines are buried and they are too light to set any landmines off. So, you know, instead of a human going in with a metal detector and the metal detector, you know, indicates every piece of scrap metal, uh, it’s, it’s tedious work. Our rats are only going for t and t and they can happily walk back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, extendable
Enrique Alvarez (15:42):
Area exploding or anything like that, which is
Isabelle Szott (15:45):
Great.
Enrique Alvarez (15:45):
Dogs would probably set this line, mines off as well, right?
Isabelle Szott (15:48):
Yes. So we also work with dogs, um, in, in areas that are more overgrown and bushy. Um, so of course for our rights, you know, we need to be able to access it with them. Um, but dogs are usually trained that if they’re detected, they will sit, um, near it. They, you know, um, and with dogs again, you are, you’re very, very careful at keeping their body weight right. Um, at, at that limit where they are safe as well. Of course. So, yeah.
Enrique Alvarez (16:15):
Well, so you, you, you ha you saw this, uh, announcement there were, there was a potential opportunity there to work with ’em that you just immediately jumped in. Did you talk to someone? I mean, how did you started to shift your mindset from animals to rats? I mean, it’s like another big shift, right? Mm-hmm.
Isabelle Szott (16:31):
<affirmative>, I think I, you know, obviously, um, you know, did a lot of research on the organization and, and Glassdoor and <laugh>, all of these things and, you know, trying to figure out like, what, what can I learn and, and where would I fit in? Um, and, and the position very clearly advertised for the innovation department, which I’m a part of now. Um, so, um, we have this active program with our rats detecting the landmines. Um, we also have an active program with our rats detecting tuberculosis, which until very recently was, you know, the biggest disease factor here in, in, in the world. And it’s only been overtaken by Covid. Um, so, uh, you know, our rats scan sputum samples from, from humans. Um, and when they detect the bacteria, um, of tuberculosis, they tell us about it. They indicate it to us. Um, so we are working with
Enrique Alvarez (17:21):
How, how they indicate, I mean, do they, I mean, dogs said, you mentioned that dogs sit next to the line. How, how do rats tell you? <laugh>
Isabelle Szott (17:28):
Indicate it depends on the project. Um, so our landmine detection rats, um, will scratch the surface when they detect a landmine buried, they will scratch on the surface. Whereas our tuberculosis rats work in a, in a, in a cage that a purple has custom designed for this, where we have the samples placed in the bottom in the holes, um, and the rat evaluates one after the other by sticking its nose in the hole and sniffing it. And if it detects tuberculosis, all it does is hold its nose there for a certain amount of seconds.
Enrique Alvarez (17:59):
And then you So that’s all the sample.
Isabelle Szott (18:01):
Exactly. And then we go and double stream the sample. Uh, if we find it to be positive, we send it back to our partner clinic to then inform the patients and say, Hey, you know, we’ve, you know, we’ve detected tuberculosis and, and, and that’s it, and we can now treat you. So that’s the other active department. Um, but then the innovation department and, and what I applied for was to, I mean, for one, help these existing departments and, and do research into how can we make this even better and what else, you know, can we do to improve it? Um, but also what else can we do with our rats? Right. You know, um, what, what other options are there? We, you know, um, my boss is inundated with emails all the time about people suggesting things. Yeah. Can, you can do <laugh>. Um, and you know, that there are, that a lot of projects that are running and that are up and running. But um, we are now doing this research on to see, you know, where, where can we go next? Um, what could be our next program? Could
Enrique Alvarez (18:56):
You, could you share a little bit of those, uh, projects or I projects don’t want you to disclose anything that you cannot disclose, but it sounds like they can do so much more. It’s already incredible what they’re doing with both tuberculosis and detecting landmines, but it sounds like they’re smart, they’re capable, they’re curious, you mentioned.
Isabelle Szott (19:16):
Yes. Um, I think as long as something has a, a unique scent profile or odor profile and we can figure out how to bring it to our rats and train them, they’ll do it. Um, you know, the challenge is really on us to figure out the best way to train our rats and, and, and support them, um, in their learning. But some of the projects we are running, um, and and developing is, um, for example, training our rats to detect survivors in collapsed buildings, um, following natural disasters. Um, so what you’ll find often is that, you know, the buildings collapse and you have these small little crevices that we can’t really access. And what we envision is that our rats can access these, um, we’ve got a whole high-tech backpack that they are wearing, um, with a camera and tracking them and hopefully two-way audio and all these things to go in and tell us if they find a person in debris so we can rescue them.
Isabelle Szott (20:15):
So that’s one of the projects. Um, and then we’ve got the next project, which is training our rats for wildlife detection. Um, so there’s a lot of illegal trade of poached wildlife. Um, and a lot of this happens through international shipping ports and shipping containers. So traffickers will be, you know, concealing, um, ivory or rhino horn, um, pangolin scales, you know, protected hardwoods, um, in those shipping containers and then trade them internationally. Um, and, and the idea is that again, that our rats are small, we can send them into a packed container without having to unload all of it. Right. Um, and we’re also exploring the opportunity for our rats to, um, be lifted to the ventilation system of these containers and actually just sniff the vent and tell us there’s something in there or not. So it removes the need to open this container in the first place, um, which would immensely help screening those, you know, billions of shipping containers, right. That are going back and forth all across the world. And it’s such a race to try and keep up with it and, and, and screen them.
Enrique Alvarez (21:23):
I believe a lot of ports are already trying this, right? Oh, I’m sorry. Oh, there, he’s
Isabelle Szott (21:28):
<laugh>. That’s
Enrique Alvarez (21:28):
Perfectly fine. Who, who’s that little guy?
Isabelle Szott (21:31):
That’s Maisie, that’s that Maisie, yeah, I’ve got a cat and a giant dog. I’ve lost one of the dog outside <laugh>, um, in hopes that there wouldn’t be any havoc, but there we go.
Enrique Alvarez (21:41):
Well, I, I just prompted another question for you, but it will probably dera us a little bit from where we’re going, so I’ll ask it later. Uh, Macy living among all those different rats, I wonder if that’s <laugh>, how that’s working? <laugh>, but, uh, so could Yeah, I, I’ve heard ports are actually using this cuz it’s uh, it’s very accurate. It’s a lot cheaper to maintain, uh, I guess a rat than scanning the containers. And I think that could be the future, isn’t it?
Isabelle Szott (22:08):
Yes. Um, so, you know, the existing methods to scan these shipping containers, um, are x-ray machines, um, where you have the issue that first of all, they’re expensive mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and, um, you know, they can tell you that the material inside is organic or not. Um, but it, you know, if somebody, you know, traffic would like to hide stuff, so they will do things like, um, ceiling, elephant ivory inside wooden logs. Right. Um, and you know, yeah.
Enrique Alvarez (22:37):
The x-rays would never really get it.
Isabelle Szott (22:39):
Right. Exactly. And then of course you’ve got detection dogs, which are doing amazing jobs, um, but you know, they can’t really access the, the vents of containers higher up. And then if you imagine a big shipping port where the containers actually placed, often they’re stacked on top of one of another, you know, to these like really, really high levels. So that’s where we think our ads can come in and help, um, and be added to, to that team, um, you know, to, to fill that gap, um, and, and, and offer another, you know, way of screening these containers.
Enrique Alvarez (23:10):
Absolutely. And, uh, and a very practical way of doing it as well. I mean, I imagine at some point we’ll have a lot of rats in the port basically working nonstop, crawling around, trying to detect all this. They could also do it, I guess, with, uh, drugs, right. And certain other materials. So it’s you’re smuggling drugs Yes. Or anything like that?
Isabelle Szott (23:30):
Yeah. Um, I mean, you know, we already know that our rats can be trained on t and t for the landmines. Um, and so far what we’ve seen is that if a dog can be trained on it, so can a rat. Um, and of course there are narcotics dogs, um, you have wildlife, you know, there’s also a lot of human trafficking happening with these shipping containers. Um, so the opportunities are endless. Um, I think, you know, right now we’re focusing on wildlife, um, and, and we’ll see where it goes from there. You know, a lot of this is also developing the methodologies of how to deploy our rats. How, how do we bring them into the port safely? How do we build something that then brings Myra up to this cement, right? Um, right. Yeah. All of these things.
Enrique Alvarez (24:13):
How much time does it take to, to train a rat from the time they’re born or, and how, how long does a, a rat live? I don’t even, I’m like, I’m clueless when it comes to, to rats. And you have really opened my eyes, and I’m sure you have open everyone’s eyes to the, to, to consider rats in a different way. I think they have like a negative connotation in our society sometimes. Yeah. But it seems that they’re amazing animals and, and they can be incredibly helpful. We could work with them, uh, probably a lot more than with dogs even.
Isabelle Szott (24:42):
Yeah. Um, so the, the species of what we work with is called the African Giant Pouch Rats. It’s native here to East Africa. Um, and one of the reasons we work with them is because they have a long lifespan. So the average lifespan of these rats in the wild is seven to eight years, which means once we’ve invested in, you know, training them for some time, they then have a working lifespan ahead of them. Um, and of course that’s an important point. You know, you don’t want to invest all this time training them and six months later you’re at, you know, dies of, of natural causes because that’s just the lifespan of it. Um, they, they’re called pouch rats because they, they’re quite closely related to hamsters actually. They’ve got these big cheap pouches that they will stuff their food in. So it’s very, very cute.
Isabelle Szott (25:26):
Um, and, um, yeah, so, so that’s the, the species that we work with. Um, in terms of how long it takes to train them, it kind of depends on the project. Um, it also depends a bit on the rat. Um, we have rats that are super fast learners and rats that are average learners <laugh>, um, or that take a bit longer. Um, um, you know, with the new projects we don’t know yet because we are still developing this. So a lot of it is, you know, we are coming up with this method and we’re like, okay, I think training them that way is gonna work. And then of course, whilst you are applying these methodologies, you realize, oh, actually this doesn’t work and we need to change it over. So, you know, the, the, the end result is hopefully gonna, you know, be one that’s very effective. But right now we are developing this, so there’s a lot of trial and error and um, also, you know, dif different avenues and different groups of like, okay, here with this, this group of rats we’re focusing on this part and this group of focusing on this part. Um, yeah,
Enrique Alvarez (26:24):
It’s, it’s exciting. Right? It sounds like they’re, the, the future is bright. It sounds like you, we haven’t really uncovered much of what they can do. So the potentials out there, it sounds like, and I wanted to tell you, ask you a little bit about, uh, three particular, uh, characters, Barack running and Carolina. How, how can, can someone a, adopt a rat? Well, first and foremost, what, who are they on, uh, <laugh>? How can someone adopt? Why are you promoting this at all?
Isabelle Szott (26:52):
So, Barack Roo and Carolina are our, um, adoption rats. Um, so the, these are rats that are out there and doing the work. Um, and you can adopt them by sponsoring them. Um, which, you know, as an NGO o um, we, we rely on funding from, um, government organizations as well as private donors. Um, and, and one way to support our work is by sponsoring rat. Um, which you can do on our website. You go on our ppo.org. Um, makes a great gift <laugh> if you absolutely, you know, surprise someone. Um, and yeah, and you can follow them along and get some updates on how they’re doing and what they are finding and, um, how they are helping
Enrique Alvarez (27:34):
In your mind. And, um, changing gears a little bit here. Um, and of course we’ll put all this note, all these comments and links on our, on our notes section, so the people that are listening to us and want to help you make a possible impact in the world, please go ahead, check it out. I’ve been to the website, the videos are incredibly interesting and very cute. And, uh, why wouldn’t you just sponsor a rat and then have that rat help, uh, so many people around the world. So we’ll put all that so that people can visit your website as well, and hopefully we’ll, we’ll be, uh, helping you as well. In your mind, what has, I mean, it’s basically a project that you’re leading. What do you think has been the biggest challenge launching such a unique application for, for our rats? I mean, what some of the things like have really been challenging. There
Isabelle Szott (28:23):
Are lots of different challenges related to different areas. Um, you know, one of them is that we are developing something completely new. Um, we haven’t worked with shipping ports before, so creating those relationships, you know, we’ve got some operational trials scheduled actually at the Seaport and Darris alarm here in Tanzania. So setting up these initial, um, not just relationships, but also connect, you know, letting people, um, getting people to agree to let you into the port with
Enrique Alvarez (28:53):
Rats. Right, right. <laugh>. Yeah. Sounds like
Isabelle Szott (28:56):
We would like to bring all of our rats in and then, you know, people are like, okay, <laugh>,
Enrique Alvarez (29:00):
Yeah, wait a minute.
Isabelle Szott (29:01):
So, yeah. Um, so that’s definitely something that, you know, we, we had to work on. And that, that was new to, to me personally. Um, um, but you know, luckily APOPO has worked with a lot of different government organizations in the past and, um, you know, we are based here at the, um, seko University of Agriculture. So we are integrated really well, um, with the uni here, um, which, which definitely helps, um, and, and is a great relationship that we have with them. Um, something else that I think is quite challenging is to try and think, um, with, you know, the purpose of a sense of smell. Um, humans, we, we rely on our sight a lot and of course we can smell, um, but it’s not our primary sense. So to now come up with training and, and consider potential problems of a sense that isn’t our primary sense can be difficult. Um, you know, we have to, and our rights are so sensitive that, you know, even touching one thing and then touching the other means, you could have brought over this contamination of scent of the molecules. Um, and our rats will pick up on that. And then you’re looking at like, why are you indicating this one? It’s not the right one.
Enrique Alvarez (30:09):
Oh, I touched it.
Isabelle Szott (30:10):
I’ve touched it. Yeah. So there are a lot of things that we are just not so primed and used to considering. Um, and, and that takes some, you know, getting used to and, and, and training and getting into the material of, you know, this is what you’re working with now and you always have to think with your different sensors. Um, so that’s, I never,
Enrique Alvarez (30:31):
Never thought of that. That seems, uh, seems like an incredible challenge to have. Cause you gotta train all those, the rats, uh, without you really being able to do it. I mean, you don’t understand how deep their sense of smell is. I mean, we, no, we’ll never get it, get it. Uh,
Isabelle Szott (30:44):
That’s,
Enrique Alvarez (30:45):
No. So that’s interesting. Well, th this, I mean, thank you so much. This has been an amazing interview. What you guys are doing is incredible. I definitely think that the future of, um, preventing some of these things and helping, uh, people through surveillance and through, um, just landmines and tuberculosis and maybe tons of other potential applications in the future will be very impactful. So thank you so much for what you’re doing, and thank you for giving me the time to connect and talk. Um, how could our listeners connect to you and, and learn a little bit more about what you do?
Isabelle Szott (31:20):
We can learn lots and lots and lots on our website. Um, you can learn about the different projects. You can adopt the rat there. Um, you, we are also on social media. Um, so you can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. Um, there’s lots and lots of very cute content of our rats stuffing bananas into the cheek. Poaches <laugh>, um, if you, if you need to pick me up. Um, and, you know, also updates about our project and how they are going. Um, so yeah, that’s the best way.
Enrique Alvarez (31:49):
Perfect. And um, so for you, you mentioned it before, I mean, sponsoring, uh, one of these acute little rats is a really good way of helping. What, how other ways could people out there help a popo? Uh, you need the money, you need, you need the funding to do this. And I think it’s a very, very good return on anyone’s investment cuz you’re helping save lives basically. So, um, how, how else can people help you?
Isabelle Szott (32:17):
I think just spreading the wood. It is always a good one. Um, you know, you said it yourself earlier, right? Don’t always get the best rep. Um, so, you know, creating this awareness of actually they, they’re, they’re doing really good stuff, um, is, is a great thing, you know, to appreciate them a bit more. Um, especially if we’re, you know, thinking about things like our search and rescue rats. We’ve had some reactions of people being like, I quite imagine you in this collapsed building and, and trapped and now a rat turns up in your face. This is the last thing I wanna see. <laugh>. You know, so just, um, you know, just this awareness of this is what you wanna see. Like, you know, you, you’re not gonna be dreaming and del delusional <laugh>, I’m, I’m seeing a speaking rat now. Um, you know that, that awareness and just spreading the word and sharing our posts, um, that that always helps.
Enrique Alvarez (33:03):
Absolutely. And, uh, we’ll definitely make sure to help you kind of promote and also help you in any other way we can. Cause this is an incredible organization. It has been a delightful conversation. And for everyone that’s listening out there, just go to the website. Once you see these riots wearing the backpacks and, and the cameras, you’ll see that they’re a lot cuter than you imagined they’ll be. And, uh, cuter not, they’re saving lives. So, uh, let’s definitely support if we can. Thank you. Easy so much. Thank you. For everyone listening, if you enjoy conversations like the one we just had with easy, please be sure to subscribe. Thank you so much and have a good day.
Isabelle Szott (33:42):
Thank you so much for having me.
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Isabelle Szott completed her Ph.D. at LJMU studying the effects of non-consumptive wildlife tourism on free-ranging African elephants in South Africa. Her research included behavior observations in the field, non-invasive hormone analyses, and tracking of collared elephants in the reserve. Before this, she was awarded a M.Phil, investigating the effects of underlying genotypes on cognitive biases in rhesus macaques in order to develop new welfare assessment tools for captive primates. For this research, she analyzed monkeys‘ DNA, used positive reinforcement and clicker training, and carried out behavioral observations and non-invasive research. She is an Associate Fellow of the Higher Education Academy, has worked with children and teenagers in Germany, the UK, France, South Africa, and Ukraine, and has mentored and supervised university students in Tanzania, South Africa, and the UK. She joined APOPO in 2021 as a researcher in the Innovation Department. Here, she leads the project training rats to detect illegally trafficked wildlife in shipping containers. Connect with Isabelle on LinkedIn.
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