Greg White (00:03):

It’s time to wake up to tequila, sunrise, Greg white here. And I have spent my career starting leading, deploying, and investing in supply chain tech. So we take a shot at talk founders, execs investors and companies in this hot industry. If you want a taste of how tech startup growth and investment is done, join blinding tequila, Sandra, you have your shot glass. We have to get into the right frame of mind for this.

Greg White (00:50):

All right. Let’s bring in our guests, Ben Gordon, managing partner and CEO, Cambridge capital and BG strategic advisors. I bet we all wonder what BG stands for.

Ben Gordon (01:02):

I dunno, GW. You tell me

Greg White (01:05):

Very, very good original Ben is a leading advisor and an investor in supply chain and tech coming fresh off of his BG strategic advisors, virtual supply chain conference for 2021, a leading CEO level event in transportation and supply chain and logistics and tech where companies get known and investments and partnership opportunities get ignited. So Ben, thanks for joining us. I really appreciate it. It’s good to see you again.

Ben Gordon (01:36):

Okay, Greg. Great to see you again. Yeah.

Greg White (01:38):

So you’re coming fresh off of this, this conference, so I’m dying and I’m sure everyone is dying. Cause you know, it’s pretty exclusive event, right? It’s invitation only. So I’m sure everybody is dying to hear, what did we learn at the conference this year? What are the big takeaways or topics or discoveries even surprises that we should know about?

Ben Gordon (02:01):

Well, I think I learned a lot and you’re right. It’s, it’s a fantastic event. It is by invitation only, but it’s not very hard to get an invitation. Just ask us, ask, you know, we make it invitation only by the way, because we used to have people crashing it all the time. You know, other investment banks and private equity firms and we’re happy to share, but we spend about half a million dollars a year on the event. And we really want to make sure that it’s predominantly comprised of CEOs sharing their feedback with other CEOs because that’s part of what makes the culture of the event special. It’s also part of what causes people to be willing to share more. And so in that spirit, some of the things that the close to 200 CEOs and supply chain leaders at the BGSA supply chain conference shared, I’ll just start by saying that the caliber of this event in terms of the attendees in some respects was better than ever been because we had access not only to CEOs and leaders of major transportation, logistics companies that you would know.

Ben Gordon (03:07):

I mean arc best eco ups, freight target emerge, Llamasoft NFI, Volta trucks, global trans Kenco lineage and others. But we also had a couple of special guests. So for example, stiffened button and the CTO of Medina, and he shared a perspective on what’s happening in the race to save the world with a COVID vaccine, as well as the cold chain logistics related to that. So one thing I learned was how Madrona is rolling out the vaccine and what it means for the logistics to support it. By the way, one of the questions that one of the CEOs in the audience asked was Howard of Stefan. He said, how are you distributing this vaccine into emerging markets where the infrastructure may not be as established in order to maintain the extreme cold temperatures required for it? And that’s a continuing question, right? Not, not easy, but that was one thing that I learned.

Ben Gordon (04:03):

The second thing was we got to have a great discussion, a one-on-one interview. We had the 75th us postmaster general R Lewis did joy. And I’ve gotten the pleasure of knowing Lewis for a long time because Louis built a logistics company, new breed, and we got to work with them over 15 years ago. And he grew that to over a $600 million business and sold it to XPO Lewis who could have retired and counted his money and enjoyed the success that he had achieved, decided to go back into public service. He took a lot of slings and arrows, right, right. Where he got a ton of thanks for his service, right? Yeah, yeah. Ton of things. But I’ll tell you what I learned from the discussion with Louis was he said, look, I’m not worried about the short-term political conversations. He said, what I’m worried about is the post office over the next decade is supposed to burn $158 billion.

Ben Gordon (04:59):

And he said, as an American, I think that’s crazy. And he said, I want to do my part as a public servant to see if I can make the post office sustainable. That 158 billion makes its way down to a point where it’s eventually break. Even it will be so much better for the U S taxpayer and so much better for the U S government. You and I were talking before the show started about things we can learn from history and the Peloponnesian war and how you can’t count on being on top forever. One way you can, uh, protect your long-term sustainability is the U S government is to not run out of money and having a post office that, that fixes that could be a big deal. So great discussion with, with our postmaster general loose to joy about that, and also about how logistics and supply chain companies could be a part of it, which I’ll come back to later if you want.

Ben Gordon (05:49):

And then a third thing, third thing that I learned was the overpowering importance of e-commerce and you know, much has been made of the fact, you may have seen the chart McKinsey put out a chart that showed that in one quarter, first quarter of COVID. We had as much growth in e-commerce as the entire decade before it. And so that shocking accelerate. So he commerce as a percent of retail spend, which was 15% in 2019 and a decade earlier, it was 5%. Okay. So to take it a decade to go from five to 15 in one quarter actually went from 15, more than 10. It went to 35%, 35% of all retail spend is e-commerce what that means for logistics. And this was a topic that permeated the conference was great news for all the services that support that. So last mile logistics, if you work from home and you’re buying online last mile matters more, and that’s good for ups and FedEx, but also last mile services and tech companies reverse logistics. You buy something online, it gets returned. Return rates are 25% online, but six to 8% in retail stores. So there’s a surgeon, reverse logistics. E-commerce fulfillment out of the goods actually gets you who manages that value added warehousing process. So all these logistics services are adapting and growing in order to respond to that e-commerce surge. So those were three things that I learned.

Greg White (07:15):

Yeah. The no surprise there from any standpoint, really interesting array of speakers you got there, that’s pretty impressive worth the price of entry e-commerce is, you know, it’s the topic of the day, right? And I know you work with a company called bring, right, that does last mile delivery. And then you have another company that you’re working with in Columbia. I believe too. What’s that one called

Ben Gordon (07:39):

That one’s called lifted, lifted at the Latin American last mile logistics tech company, growing queuing. Great. Actually just brought on a terrific addition to the senior team, Jim van lenan, uh, who’s had experience building and growing much larger logistics companies. And it’s actually a neat example because it shows the maturation of supply chain technology. So, you know, in the early days, uh, really early days when I started my first company, 22 years ago in logistics tech that make me a, uh, a grandpa and in SAS terms,

Greg White (08:12):

I guess, so we can call you supply chain, grandpa. I don’t think so. Let’s not how about favorite? Okay,

Ben Gordon (08:18):

Cool. All right. I it’s better than crazy uncle. So whatever I was when I started my first company threeplex I was 26 years old and you know, our team was comprised of young, you know, tech oriented founders and a sign of success for us when we got to be large enough that we could start recruiting seasoned veterans who had built great businesses like our VP of sales, uh, eventually is a guy named Bob Devoss who had run all of sales for Schneider logistics and multi-billion dollar business. So in much the same way, you see a proof point of success for a company when it can attract that next level of talent and lift it’s done that and bringing in Jim van lean-in who had helped build companies before that would flash global logistics us pack GE trained black belt, you know, run SIRVA international. So, you know, I think we’re excited about lifted. We’re excited about the growth. We’re excited about the entrepreneurial team. And we’re also excited about the things that are a sign of the maturation of the company as it gets to the next level.

Greg White (09:18):

Well, and there’s somewhat of a transition. Speaking of our David and Goliath discussion prior to the start here, there is the distinct opinion. And I wonder if you guys talked about this for the displacement, if not disruption in at least some cases of the traditional parcel last mile carriers, because they seem to be struggling mightily to be able to deliver the last mile with any level of economic feasibility and some of these other companies, some of these smaller carriers seem to be making headway in that regard. So I feel like there is at least room in the marketplace for these companies and possibly, maybe even a changing of the guard. Did you guys talk about any of that?

Ben Gordon (10:01):

Yes. Yes. So I think there are a couple of elements to that first. There’s the huge market shift in the growth in last mile. And then second, there’s the question of who the winners are. Am I set up to show you a slide on this? That that’ll give you an illustration or,

Greg White (10:16):

Oh my gosh, we have visual AIDS. Uh, let me see, let me make sure you can share. Yeah, there you go. You should be able to go. Yeah,

Ben Gordon (10:25):

I should be able to. All right. So I’m going to give you a visual aid to, to share with the audience that I think will help. So the context here is what’s happening in terms of the shift, and I’m going to show you just, just what I think is going on. Can you see my screen?

Greg White (10:41):

Yes. Wow. It worked been amazing. We’re breaking new ground on tequila center.

Ben Gordon (10:47):

You technical stars here, you and me with this chart illustrates is we’re value migrated in the past year. So what’s interesting to note is last year we have an index at BGSA the BGSA supply chain index. It’s a basket of close to 70 public companies in all areas of transportation, logistics, distribution, and supply chain. The basket was up about 26% last year, which beat the market. But what’s interesting is the allocation of those dollars. So what we thought would be a good way to look at it was segment the market into a series of sectors. And if you look along the X axis, you’ll see the highest performing sector was LTL led by companies like YRC with a and the Y axis shows their percentage change in stock price. Y R C went up 120%. The size of the bubble reflects the enterprise enterprise value of the company.

Ben Gordon (11:40):

Okay? So the LTL category was the best arc best TFI CYO YRC. Second best was parcel. You’ll see FedEx ups and DHL, and then software logistics, railroad, et cetera, all the way down to the laggard at the right, which of course was the airline sector, which got crushed airlines lost $118 billion last year from a P and L standpoint, which was about a decade worth of profit. But the winners on the left LTL and parcel, these guys were beneficiaries of the shift from work to home for retail to e-commerce and the logistics that supported those two shifts. Okay. So LTL carriers were doing that last mile delivery. And of course, so, so are the parcel companies. But what I want to highlight here is the aggregate dollar shift to parcel. So if you look at the size of the bubbles, FedEx ups and DHL, really the biggest bubbles on the page with the exception of union Pacific, right?

Ben Gordon (12:38):

And so those guys gained $110 billion of market value last year to reach 343 billion. It’s one thing when you’re a tiny startup and you spiked by, you know, a huge amount. I mean, absolute software’s up over a hundred percent great, but look at the size of the bubble ups, FedEx and DHL, you know, now a third of a trillion dollars in market value. So you saw this huge surge to those big guys. Now reasonable question to ask is what, what happens next and who, you know, who the other winners will be. And that’s where we get to the second part of your question. They guys who were actually doing the delivery have been winners, but the guys providing software for last mile are also big winners. Now, most of those guys are not public. So this is more a reflection of the private markets. And by the way, I’m biased.

Ben Gordon (13:28):

I don’t want to sell my book, but I will tell you, you know, that look, I’m an investor in a last mile software company called bring and brings a good illustration of this bring, you know, has had tremendous growth in the past year, you know, close to doubling doing a great job, serving, you know, blue-chip customers, Walmart, McDonald’s Panera host of others, focusing on this very issue. So I think you have a couple of types of winners. There are the large asset based players doing the last mile. There are the logistics companies managing it, you’ll see XPO and the blue bubble and logistics, which, which, you know, is up a little over 40% last year about an $18 billion market value company now, and also a portfolio company of ours dating back close to a decade. And then you have these software companies who are pure plays focused on that particular issue and they’re doing great. So I think those three categories of really asset based asset light and software, those are all sources of winners when it comes to the world.

Greg White (14:23):

Yeah. There is a, a big and growing market and the market. I mean, the way the market grew largely, I mean, largely for those carriers that you talked about was not really market share capture as such. It was rate increases with the customers they had and the customers they acquired because their profits that drove their, their share price are legendary. Uh, in some cases like record historical historically right in the history of the companies and also these massive surcharges that they seem to be originally to be putting in for peak, but now have somehow survived peak. I think that is an opening for companies like bring and lift it. They can figure out a way to do it, uh, to do last mile more economically. I think they could take business off of these big carriers. I really wonder, have wondered. And I haven’t done any analysis to be fair to our community here, but I really have wondered whether we aren’t nearing the point where companies will wonder whether e-commerce is, is viable because the cost and the inability to assess the cost prior to delivery of shipment of last mile parcel is unknown.

Greg White (15:41):

It’s high and unknown, right? Sometimes you don’t know that you violated some surcharge until the delivery is actually made, uh, because of the complexity and the sheer breadth of these things. So I feel like that creates an opening for some of these companies that can be a little bit more transparent. That can be a little bit more agile, right. And certainly I believe are, are constructed for last mile in a way that hopefully is more economical than some of these big old parcel carriers.

Ben Gordon (16:11):

No, I think that’s right. I think that’s right. I think there is a value migration from the big asset based incumbents into the small software-based challengers. There’s no question that we’re seeing that. Totally there.

Greg White (16:23):

Anything else jump out at you. I mean, anything that really surprised you or that you want to make sure everyone takes away as a knowledge point from the conference?

Ben Gordon (16:34):

Yeah, I do. So if I look at some of the resulting trends that come out of the growth in e-commerce, I’d say, you know, one huge outcome is the last mile. I’ll go back and give you a screen share and show you a little more of the substance of, of, of what I mean. So if you think about it, when you dis-aggregate, what happens when you deliver something to a consumer’s house, you’ve got costs and warehousing, sorting parceling, last mile delivery, and then some other exhilarate spots, but 41% of that total cost is in the last mile. So companies that are focused on that are the beneficiaries, and that’s going to continue to be the case for several years to come. What’s interesting is when you look at the deal environment, whereas in 2013, 14, 15, you saw XPO making acquisitions like three PD and UX, but there wasn’t that much activity, things started to pick up in 2017.

Ben Gordon (17:29):

Target bought our friends at grand junction, but shipped and other handful of others. But look at what happened last year in 2020 forward air buying LENSTAR target Deliv, JB hunt, RDI, us pack, freight Costco and avail, and more that’s happened since then. It’s not on the page. So deal activity, because last is a big deal. So if you’re in the logistics world through a logistics company or a retailer, you need a last mile strategy and you need to figure out how to add more scale, more services, more technology, and more capabilities to that. I think that’s one huge theme. I think a second huge theme is the growth in reverse logistics. When you buy something and it gets returned, you know, reverse logistics, return rates for brick and mortar close to 8%. But online close to 25%, that’s driving a reverse logistics market growing in about 19% annually, same thing, every logistics company, retailer, and brand needs a reverse logistics strategy and plan.

Ben Gordon (18:27):

And then the last thing that I’ll say, and this is actually has nothing to do with e-commerce, but everything to do with 2021 is this was the year where the world realized that supply chain matters because it literally has been life and death. When it comes to things like distributing culture and vaccines. This was part of what came out of the conversation with the CEO of modernist, if I’m buying sell. So you think about the software and the services that support that cold chain monitoring is one proxy for, for, for this category. And if that was a $4.6 billion market last year, it should be over an $8 billion market in four years. And what’s striking is when you look at what people in the pharmaceutical industry say, most of them, I mean, look, 92% of them say they can’t a hundred percent trust the data coming in from their tracking products. So there is a pain point in the world of cold chain and logistics and supply chain companies can be part of the solution to address this need. So if I were going to pinpoint three things that that to me are key learnings that came out of our conference. Those would be the three.

Greg White (19:33):

Yeah. And of course the news previewed that a bit. I mean, of course Americold and lineage logistics were both very, very equivalent acquisitive last year, obviously my guess is in anticipation of the opportunity to distribute the vaccines and that sort of thing. But you’re right. Those are all very hot areas, including cold chain. And as you said, the world awakened to supply chain now bin, we don’t necessarily have to tell our third uncle Jim, what supply chain is, right. Chances are good that they already know when we sit down at the dinner table. So

Ben Gordon (20:10):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Greg White (20:14):

So you put this on through BGSA right. Ben Gordon, strategic advisors, tell us a little bit about BGSA and Cambridge capital. So everybody understands how you play in the industry.

Ben Gordon (20:27):

Sure. So close to 20 years ago, I started an investment bank focused on transportation, logistics and supply chain technology. That firm is BG strategic advisors, and BGSA has worked at over 50 deals with giants like ups, FedEx, DHL could inaugural Shanker, Pennell, peanut agility, and others, and lots of other mid-sized high companies at the time, midsize companies like NFI, GENCO, new breed, all of whom have become much larger companies since then and a, and a variety of others. Uh, thanks to them. We played a small role helping them, but, but, uh, you know, when you, when you work with great companies and you help them, then, then the small ones become big ones. And then, uh, that, so that’s BGSA, and there’s a team of professional investment bankers on the BGSA side. Most recently, BGSA just sold a division of Werner. Uh Werner’s of course the multi-billion dollar trucking company were sold to freight forwarding division to scan global logistics.

Ben Gordon (21:23):

And the BGSA team was exclusive advisor to Werner on that. So, so they’re doing great. Cambridge capital is, is, is my private equity business. I started at close to a decade ago in the beginning, just for me to invest my own capital and prove that I could generate success then started to bring in partners, uh, and you know, continue to increase that business. We were an original investor in XPO with Brad Jacobs 10 years ago, back when it was an idea and an original platform, of course, now, now an $18 billion giant. Uh, we invested in grand junction, the e-commerce and last mile logistics, a tech company, which we ended up selling to target bring lifted green screens, host of others. So, so those are the two businesses I spend my time today focused on Cambridge capital, uh, and focused, exclusively on helping to identify great founders and provide them not just with money, but also with help, uh, along with a team of people that’s built major companies in and around the supply chain world.

Ben Gordon (22:24):

So for example, my partner ISA Al Sala was the CTO of agility. We work together 16 years ago and he built that to a $5 billion public company and then decided to move on and join us to focus on investing in helping other companies achieve that level of success. So operators who know what it’s like to build great businesses value, not just the money, but also that the help and the involvement. So those are the two parts to, to, to our business. This conference has been hosted by BGSA for 15 years running and really is, is the, the, the annual gathering for many of the best and brightest in the industry. Not all of them. And those, those that haven’t made. It are certainly welcome to come back and join us next year for every year, except for this past one in person in Palm beach, at the breakers. And certainly for me, a great place to learn. And I, I, I believe for most everybody,

Greg White (23:17):

Well, we’re all looking forward to be in person. The breakers would be a fantastic place, especially since we get to talk supply chain, which what could be more fun than that.

Ben Gordon (23:26):

Indeed. What could be more fun?

Greg White (23:28):

Well, I mean, it is serious. There are a ton of us geeks out there who really do love and get it. And frankly, I think probably much like you, I’m glad that supply chain has come to the forefront of companies, right? It was at once. It was an operations exercise. So you’ll make sure the stuff gets on the truck basically lumping, and then it was a necessary evil. And then it became a strategic, a strategic weapon. And now it is at the forefront of your brand equity and identity of your customer experience strategy and at the profit of the company. So it’s good that people recognize the value and frankly, that we’ve stepped up, we in the industry here have stepped up our game to really focus on and deliver those kinds of things as well. So I appreciate what you’re doing to expose all of that to the industry, to give opportunities to companies that are seeking funding or companies that are looking to expand, or just learn more about supply chain, where it has been, where it is and where it’s going, it’s a really valuable experience. So I appreciate you doing that.

Ben Gordon (24:32):

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. So

Greg White (24:35):

As we wrap Ben, you know, so much about the industry, look, if, if someone isn’t, uh, is, um, looking for investing or involved in investing or seeking investment in the industry, whether they fit your company’s thesis or not, chances are good, they know of you. So I’d love for you to take some of the experience that you have in the industry. Some of the knowledge that you’ve acquired over the years and give a takeaway or two for our listeners. I mean, if there’s anything that they just absolutely must know about supply chain in this time, what would you say are the most important things for folks to think about?

Ben Gordon (25:11):

Well, I think it all depends on your vantage point. If you are building a company somewhere in supply chain, whether it’s on the tech side, the service side or the asset side, to me, number one thing that I think you should be thinking about is there are these huge macro forces in the industry right now, and they’re bigger than any one of us, you know, the growth in e-commerce the, the surgeon reverse logistics, e-commerce fulfillment last mile, uh, cold chain. These are macro trends. So figure out how to ride those trends as my friend and one of our operating partners, bill Conway likes to say, find a parade and get in front of it. And so, so I think that to me, that’s pretty good advice I found. So, so I think that’s number one, you’re building a business in the space, make sure the trends are behind you, that the wave is pushing you forward and that not, not about to crush you.

Ben Gordon (26:02):

I think that’s one, two is if you are a technology provider in this arena, it’s never been more exciting. There’s never been more growth. And there’s also never been more capital $4 billion poured into the freight tech sector in the last year. Also never been more competitive. And so sometimes there’s a risk that you are too aggressive and sometimes there’s a risk that you’re too conservative in this market. The winners in my view are not just going to be the ones that have the best solutions, but that also have the best resources now, resources. Isn’t just financial, it’s also human resources, right? So, you know, if you have two great, but one of them has 50 million behind them. And the other is five and one of them goes and recruits a board that includes several former CEOs from supply chain and the other doesn’t yes, what the first guy is going to win, right?

Ben Gordon (26:58):

The guy with more resources wins and you know, so, so my advice to the high growth tech companies that are looking at this arena is don’t be afraid to make the changes to make sure you’ve got those resources behind you. You can, you know, you can overdo it. I mean, you know, there is such a thing as raising too much money and in the end you become a prisoner of, of the money instead of, you know, focusing on a strategy. But, but don’t under-capitalized for the opportunity. And the third thing I would say is if you are at the enterprise side, you know, like you’re the chief supply chain officer at a fortune 500 company, I’d encourage you to think about how you can not only use great services, but also see further into the future. You know, something that ups did, which is something that I think every fortune 500 company, even though ups is logistics company and a shipper can, uh, can learn from is they set up something called the ups strategic enterprise fund, you know, our mutual friend and my operating partner, remiss capacities ran that.

Ben Gordon (27:58):

And what ups did is they said, we’re going to invest in companies for two reasons. We want financial returns, but we also want knowledge returns. Okay. So what does that mean? Well, it means that you want to be getting smarter about where’s the change going to take place in the market and what does it mean for you? And if you’re a large corporation and you do that, and it allows you to see further into the future, you’re going to make better decisions for your supply chain. So maybe you could make some strategic investments like ups did, or maybe you could at least partner with, uh, a growth capital firm that can give you access to the things that they’re seeing, or maybe there’s another way, but one way or the other, put yourself in a position where you’re not just working with supply chain companies, but you’re also looking into the future to make sure that you also are in front of the wave and buffeted by that instead of threatened by it

Greg White (28:49):

Ride that wave, don’t be ashamed. You know, the wave exists for a reason and that’s because there is significant market need out there. So, yeah, and I think that’s really, really good guidance, as you said, the best resources be they fiscal or human or whatever they win. So I think that’s great guidance. All right. So I really appreciate your time. Of course, I know your time is valuable and we had maybe the slightest technical glitch when the power went out here as we started. So I appreciate your patience there as well. Finally, how can our community get in touch with you?

Ben Gordon (29:24):

Well, you can reach me on LinkedIn. Um, I’m pretty visible. And, and, uh, as a guy who likes to write about logistics and supply chain, so feel free to reach out. My LinkedIn handle is Ben Gordon 18. You can come to my website at Cambridge capital, Cambridge capital.com. You can email me@benatcambridgecapital.com, or you can follow me on Twitter handle Benjamin H. Gordon, but one way or the other I’m reachable. Like you, I’m a busy guy, but if you have a real idea, uh, and you share it with me, I promise you I’ll respond to the 24.

Greg White (29:58):

I can vouch for that excellent response. I don’t know how you do it, but you’re very responsive and always on top of things. So I really appreciate it. A big thanks, Dan. I really, really do appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us on tequila, sunrise. I think this is your second maybe. And you got a repeat episode as well. So in fact, I think your episode is probably the most popular tequila sunrise of all times. So let’s see if we can build on that.

Ben Gordon (30:25):

Well, we got to go to, to beat for next time then there we go.

Greg White (30:29):

Yeah. Thank you, Ben. Appreciate it. Ben Gordon, managing partner and CEO, Cambridge capital and BG strategic advisors. Thank you for joining us.

Ben Gordon (30:37):

Thank you, Greg. Always a pleasure

Greg White (30:45):

Tequila, sunrise, as part of the supply chain. Now network the voice of supply chain featuring the people technologies best practices, key issues in the industry. And Hey, listen up to build your supply chain knowledge. Listen to get this supply chain is boring or Chris bonds connection to the who’s, who that got supply chain, where we are point as to where we’re going and take us to the next level or check out this week in business history with supply chain. Now his own Scott Luton to learn more about everyday things you may take for granted and pick up quick insights you can use as inspiration and conversation starters. I logistics with purpose series puts a spotlight on inspiring and successful organizations that give first give forward as their business model. If you’re interested in transportation, freight and logistics, have a listen to the logistics and beyond series with the adapt and thrive mindset, Sherpa, Jaymin Alvidrez, and also check out tech talk hosted by industry bet and Atlanta zone Kerryn bursa supply chain pro to know of 2020, where Korean discusses the people, processes and technology of digital supply chain for sponsorship information on tequila, sunrise, or any supply chain.

Greg White (32:03):

Now show DME on Twitter or instagram@gregoryswhiteoremailmeatgregatsupplychainnow.com. Thanks again for spending your time with me and remember acknowledge reality, but never be bound by it.