Chris Barnes (00:06):

Hey, it’s Chris. The supply chain doctor and host of supply chain is boring. Over the years. I’ve interviewed some of the brightest minds and successful leaders in the world of supply chain management. In May, 2020. I sat down with Ken Ackerman to learn more about him and collect a little supply chain management history. After our discussion. Ken told me about a similar interview he had with Dr. James stock many years prior, and the related work Dr. Stock was doing in November, 2020. I was able to catch up with Dr. James stock to learn about his work as an academic in the field of transportation logistics. And now what we call supply chain management. Jim was well connected to many of the original academic thought leaders in the space. Jim did interviews with many of these original thought leaders and shared them with me. The list includes Ken Ackerman, Don Bauer socks, James Hasket, bud Leland, John Langley, Jr. Tom Menser, Tom SP and Daniel Ren to carry on the great work started by Dr. Jim stock. I’m dusting off these interviews and bringing them to you on supply chain is boring.

James Stock (01:13):

What’s your most fond memory of the military?

James Heskett (01:19):

Well, I think the fond memory is the relationships with other, uh, people that you form, uh, being drafted. Uh, we had a highly diverse, uh, set of people. These were not people who had selected themselves into the, uh, army. Uh, there are characters that I, uh, will probably never forget. Uh, but I think too, uh, the certain, uh, discipline, uh, I probably needed a little of that, um, things as simple as making your bed and keeping your, uh, area policed around that bed, uh, which probably influenced the way I’ve behaved ever since. But then there was also the aspect of travel and, um, I think the army gave me a much more worldly view that I’ve never lost. In fact, it sort of paved the way for a lifetime of travel and an attempt to understand how other people think and speak and eat all that sort of thing.

James Stock (02:31):

So in some, it would, uh, appear that you view that as a very positive experience in your

James Heskett (02:36):

Life. I wouldn’t have missed it for any wouldn’t want to do it again necessarily, but I wouldn’t have missed it for any. Okay.

James Stock (02:42):

Now you mentioned going from the military into the MBA program at Stanford, um, and working with Gaton Jermaine, who, um, uh, was one of the early people in, uh, logistics starting out in transportation. Um, you mentioned his influence working for him as sort of a secretary. Um, how did he influence you to sort of concentrate on that area, uh, in your area of study?

James Heskett (03:12):

Well, it was a short step from, uh, working with him as a secretary to working with him and, um, his protege, Nick Glasgows as a case writer, uh, preparing materials, um, since I, they had been very good about making sure that I became acquainted with some of the members of the executive program class, this transportation management program, uh, they suggested that maybe I follow up with some of those people and explore the possibility of writing cases. Um, it, um, there were, uh, there were some other people that they also encouraged, uh, to join this group, a guy named Bob Ivy, who later became head of United vintners of a large, um, uh, wine producing organization in California, uh, fellow named John mortgage, who later became CEO and, and, uh, chairman of Cisco systems, uh, in the nineties. Uh, in other words, a, a group of people who interacted in ways that sort of led to an expectation of bigger things. And I, and I think Gaton Jermaine really, uh, being a young successful member of the Stanford business school faculty sort of instilled in us the idea that you can, you can do anything, uh, this place is wide open as an opportunity and you ought to take advantage of it.

James Stock (04:52):

Okay. So based upon that, um, MBA experience, um, and working with Gaton Jermaine, that is what sort of was the catalyst to get you into the advanced degree.

James Heskett (05:03):

He took me aside and suggested one day that I consider going on for a doctorate. Uh, I think my first question was, I don’t know what that means. And, uh, he described for me what the life of an academic, uh, might be like and, um, and, and expressed confidence that I could complete the, and, uh, provided basically the inspiration. He, he was an example of what one could do at a, at a young age, at an age that seems young now mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, uh, and so he provide, he was the, he was the spark, uh, that, uh, put me forward. He’d be one of the few people in my life who, uh, really influenced the course of my work.

James Stock (05:54):

So no regrets leaving that retailing, uh, career behind as you had anticipated.

James Heskett (05:59):

Oh yeah, a lot of regrets. I’ve, uh, I’ve regretted that all my life. Uh, in fact, uh, only through my board work, have I been able to get back to it? I, uh, I’ve served on the boards of, uh, companies called Brooks fashion that goes back away, uh, office Depot, uh, limited brands. I’m, I’m partial to retailing mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, in that respect. And I suppose that’s been a way for me to, to work out the frustrations of never having been able to get into the store and manage one mm-hmm <affirmative>.

James Stock (06:35):

So in this doctoral program that, uh, gained Jermaine, sort of got you into this interest in being a professor, um, how did you get that first, you know, the process you went through in getting that first academic position?

James Heskett (06:50):

Well, in those days, um, you are, you were not supposed to write letters on your own behalf. Uh, there was a philosophy at Stanford that, uh, it didn’t even make much difference if you went to the academic meetings. Uh, that what was really important was that, um, you have, uh, a sponsor write a letter on your behalf. And I had, uh, a fellow named David Ville who was professor marketing at, uh, at the school at that time, write some letters on my behalf, um, uh, gate and Jermaine wrote some letters, uh, probably made a phone call or two. And I, uh, ended up with, as I recall, three offers, um, from that process, uh, the university of New Hampshire university of Michigan and Ohio state university. I recall going up to the university of New Hampshire during something called the winter carnival up there, uh, getting off the train and stepping into a five foot snow bank <laugh>, uh, in a, on a campus where the, uh, it seemed to me, uh, the students were almost as cold as the weather. So, uh, that was one of my experiences. Um, and so my major choice was between, uh, Michigan and Ohio state.

James Stock (08:29):

Okay. And how did you make that decision?

James Heskett (08:33):

I, uh, I made the decision, I think, based on my interaction with the people on both of those faculties, um, uh, they were, they, I think were both quite, uh, hospitable, although, um, I must say that the, uh, uh, there was a feeling of warmth at Ohio state that, uh, sort of encouraged me to, uh, to want to join that, uh, faculty, even though I think it was the lowest of the three offers, uh, interesting that I received. I I’ll never forget the starting, uh, wage at that time. It was, uh, $7,200. And, uh, uh, I thought that was, uh, I’m sure a bit of a sacrifice from 7,600 or whatever Michigan had offered, but, uh, uh, I was willing to give up the $400 for the, uh, collegial atmosphere.

James Heskett (09:41):

Okay. Uh, and at Ohio state, there were people like, uh, bill Davidson, art Coleman, uh, Ted Beckman, uh, in the marketing group at that time who were particularly welcoming. There was no one in logistics, so I, I didn’t have anyone to welcome me. Uh, a course in transportation was being taught by a motor carrier executive, uh, fellow named, uh, uh, James Riley called him Ralph, Ralph Riley. Okay. Um, who always claimed that I got his job. Uh, I think he was always, uh, joking about it. I was never quite sure, but, uh, uh, nevertheless it was a, a, uh, collegial atmosphere there.

James Stock (10:27):

Okay. So when Ohio state hired you, did they hire you specifically to teach the transportation course plus other marketing courses or what, uh, was the specific position that they wanted

James Heskett (10:37):

You for that it was basically to teach that course, um, and to teach marketing as well, uh, at Ohio state, as at many other schools, um, there was very little concern about, uh, how you taught or what you taught as long as it was within the subject area. You were basically king in my case, king of your domain. And, um, so I was able to, uh, teach transportation, but slowly bring in the logistics material as well. In marketing, I believe I taught a basic marketing course and MBA marketing as well.

James Stock (11:24):

And as Jim, as we mentioned in overviewing your career, um, in 1965, you took a leave mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, to form this logistics consulting firm. What was the motivation to do that? And then subsequent that going to Harvard as opposed to staying in Ohio state?

James Heskett (11:45):

Well, uh, let me, uh, just correct the sequence just a bit. Okay. Uh, I did, uh, Ohio state, but I took a visiting position at Harvard.

James Stock (11:56):

Ah, okay.

James Heskett (11:58):

And it was during the time of that, um, associate professorship, essentially, which extended for several years, uh, that I actually took the leave to head up, uh, this group called business logistics. Um, so I had, uh, in a sense moved geographically, uh, and established, uh, this group, uh, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, uh, the, um, my colleagues thought I was out of my mind. Uh, it was an opportunity that came along, I suppose. I’ve always had the desire to be a practitioner in the back of my mind. And this was an opportunity to put together a group to do some consulting in logistics, um, because I was up for tenure and full rank, uh, during the time that I was away from campus. So, um, that was not considered by my colleagues at Harvard to be a good move, uh, a wise move. Uh, I had one, uh, uh, close colleague, a guy named Bob bezel, who, with whom I had, uh, who had taught at Ohio state. Bob had, I had just missed him there, but, uh, who advised me not to leave at that time? And I said, well, you know, Bob, they’re either gonna promote me or they’re not on the basis of what I’ve already done. And, um, this is something I’d really like to do. So I was actually promoted while I was away from campus. Okay.

James Stock (13:41):

Now it’s interesting, Jim, you used the term logistics mm-hmm <affirmative> and we know at that time, most folks thought physical distribution, the inbound side yeah. Was not really considered. Right. When did you sort of transition from that physical distribution to the logistics component?

James Heskett (13:58):

Well, my thesis was called industrial logistics. Uh, so I guess I was thinking of it early on. Okay. And, uh, if I pulled that thesis off the shelf, I think I have a diagram in there of the inbound and outbound, uh, uh, processes, but the, uh, and I’ve always really thought of it in that fashion. Maybe it was the, maybe it was the military background of Gaden Jermaine that encouraged me in that regard. Can’t remember. But, um, I I’ve always used that term. Uh, even when we were obviously, uh, in the early days of the council national council, physical distribution management, it always seemed to me that distribution was one side of the, uh, coin, but there was another side as well.

James Stock (14:55):

Okay. Very good. Now, when you look back at Ohio state and, and the majority of your career was at Harvard, um, of all the things you’ve done and there’s quite a number of those, what do you think from your perspective do you think was the most significant

James Heskett (15:15):

Well <laugh>, I think we’re probably, uh, uh, those of us who do things like this as you do, uh, probably the least qualified to, uh, to name the most significant. The one that probably has had the biggest impact on, on my career. Um, given the fact that, uh, uh, about the first half of that, uh, career has been in logistics and the second half in service management. Um, I think probably the, the, the most significant for me was, uh, putting together a set of ideas that had been posed by others into something we called the service. I called the service profit chain going back in the early eighties. Um, I was actually sent to Switzerland to, um, to close down an executive program on behalf of the Harvard business school and sitting in that office over there for a year up on the mountain side with, uh, cows looking in through the window.

James Heskett (16:27):

I had a lot of time to think about things and, uh, basically put together this set of ideas that, uh, that, uh, resulted in a book that I wrote called managing in the service economy that outlined a couple of things. First of all of a strategic service vision, and kind of a framework for thinking about strategy and then, uh, this set of relationships, uh, in which, uh, basically employee satisfaction, commitment, and, uh, loyalty drives, customer satisfaction, loyalty and commitment, which in turn drives profit, uh, relationships weren’t proven until later that is mathematically, but it seemed to me that that was the right set of relationships. And, um, it has provided a another 20 years of research, which for an academic is, is like red meat, I guess. Sure.

James Stock (17:30):

So Jim, as you look back at your career and it’s still continuing, you’re still involved<affirmative> what, um, do you think will be viewed by others as your most significant contribution?

James Heskett (17:45):

Well, I, I suspect it, it’s probably this work around the service profit chain. Uh, I, I, I have a feeling that, um, what I did in logistics was not nearly as significant as what some of my colleagues at other schools had done. Um, the, uh, some of the earliest influential thinking in the field for me was a study that was done in 1954, ironically at the Harvard business school on air freight and total distribution or something,

James Stock (18:26):

The economics of air freight, cull steel, those

James Heskett (18:29):

Folks, James Cullin, mm-hmm <affirmative> and a guy named steel. Right. I don’t think I ever met them. Uh, but that was, that was influential for me. I suspect it was influential for a couple of guys at Michigan state ed, Mike, and Don Bauer SOS, who then came out two or three years later with what I thought was a terrific book, uh, physical distribution management, perhaps. Um, and one that, um, that was in sync with what I was doing, uh, in my thesis work. At that point I had, I hadn’t finished my thesis and I, maybe their book came out in 59. I’m not quite sure, but it confirmed in many ways what I was thinking about. Um, and, uh, and certainly influenced, uh, Nick glass Gosky and Bob Ivy and myself, when we did our first book in business logistics, which was 62. So, uh, you know, we were, we were not pioneering much of anything in terms of ideas, but extending ideas that, uh, that were being developed, I think quite rapidly and successfully by people on other campuses. Mm-hmm

James Stock (19:49):

<affirmative>. Now you mentioned that at Stanford, you met, uh, Ivy and Nicholas Kowski and so forth. Yeah. How did that relationship, uh, continue after Stanford, particularly into a book?

James Heskett (20:02):

Well, uh, uh, Nick had moved on to the university of Minnesota, I believe. And we continued to correspond, I went back to Stanford to teach in a summer program so that there was still, uh, uh, some relationship there. And we, uh, decided that, uh, my thesis, I believe, might contain the seeds of a book, but that it was not publishable, uh, the way it was written. And so we actually went about this in a very workmanlike way. We rented an office in Menlo park, California, um, and Bob and Nick and I had office space and we literally sat there, uh, writing chapters and, and passing material back and forth, uh, for a summer. I, I believe it was the summer of 61, if I’m not mistaken, uh, and, uh, essentially hammered out the book that was then published in the subsequent year. Um, we’ve since drifted apart, Nick has retired. Um, I’ve lost track of Bob, uh, but, uh, for those few years we did maintain that relationship.

James Stock (21:33):

Now, did you have a book contract or was that something you submitted to Ronald press and others after the book was written?

James Heskett (21:40):

I think, I think we had a contract, uh, and I, I can’t remember how that process came about, but, um, I don’t think we wrote a manuscript and submitted it. Okay.

James Stock (21:54):

All right. Now, as you look at your career, and again, we know you’re still, uh, active. Is there something that, um, at this point you’re curious, I wish I would’ve done this.

James Heskett (22:05):

Oh, there are a lot of things <laugh> I can say. I wish I, uh, had done, um, uh, I wish I would’ve written that my, a vow SOS book mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, for one thing or the Cullin steel, uh, book for that matter. Uh, but, um, uh, I suspect, uh, I would have liked to, and I may still have a chance to correct this. Uh, I would’ve liked to have done more in the corporate culture and performance mm-hmm <affirmative> area. I did the one piece of work with John co, uh, and, uh, it was of the sort that I like to do that is, uh, actually kind of, uh, putting together, uh, systematic, anecdotal research based on, uh, database examination, uh, which that book was all about. I think there is still, uh, a, a good piece of work to be done in that area. Um, uh, but that’s sort of the latest thing that I wish I had, uh, uh, I wish I had written, uh, uh, built to last or good to great. As far as that <laugh>, as far as that goes <laugh>

James Stock (23:32):

Yes. Very interesting book. Um, you mentioned Gaton Jermaine in masters, in PhDs being a mentor and influencer mm-hmm <affirmative>. Uh, did you have any mentors once you were a faculty member?

James Heskett (23:47):

I had several, uh, at Ohio state, I think, uh, uh, clearly, uh, bill Davidson are Coleman, uh, were, were quite effective, uh, stayed in touch with both of them throughout’s life and still I’m in touch with bill Davidson, uh, in retire in his retirement. Um, I, uh, Lou stern was not so much a mentor as a, um, a close colleague. We did some writing together. Lou went on to Northwestern. Uh, so, uh, there was a, there was a really supportive, um, atmosphere at Ohio state that helped me, uh, I think, uh, do what I was able to do at Harvard. Um,

James Heskett (24:36):

I, uh, I think the, um, role of mentor was passed on to, in a sense to then Dean George Baker, uh, Gaton Jermaine had been a student of George Baker’s, ah, interesting. Uh, and Gaton essentially provided the introduction if you will. Um, that probably led to my ultimate appointment, but after I arrived at Harvard, um, uh, George Baker continued to, uh, provide advice in his fatherly stentorian Brahman, uh, tones from, and, uh, I’ll never forget one day he called me in and he said, uh, something I’ll never be able to understand. He said, uh, you’ve completed the requirements said for, uh, for a full professorship, but you’re too young. You’re going to have to wait another couple of years. I never, I never quite understood that

James Stock (25:47):

Interesting philosophy that still exists. I believe <laugh>,

James Heskett (25:50):

Um,

James Stock (25:51):

In terms of, um, people events, um, all those things. What do you think was the biggest, the most significant event that took place, uh, as a faculty member that has influenced you?

James Heskett (26:10):

Oh, I, uh,

James Heskett (26:12):

I think there have been many, but, uh, I suppose the, um, I suppose the offer from Harvard for this reason, uh, first of all, it enabled me to do more and I think better work in the whole area of case development. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> because of the orientation of the school and the fact that, uh, it’s a school with, um, not many limits on resources. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, the limits at that school are time, not money. And, uh, you can, you can basically do what you’re capable of doing. Um, there are no excuses, uh, and resource, you know, availability of resources are, is not an excuse up there. And, um, I think that probably has influenced me as much, but of course, uh, that wouldn’t have been possible without Ohio state. So mm-hmm, <affirmative>

James Stock (27:14):

Now, do you think, in terms of the way you have, uh, conducted your professional life, have you done that with some basic either mission statement or creed or, uh, philosophy?

James Heskett (27:29):

Well, I basically operated from five year plans, um, which hardly ever turn out the way you, uh, plan, um, the I’ve, uh, played a long term administrative role at, at the Harvard business school. And I probably would not have had that in my plan, uh, up until the time I was asked to, uh, become a part of a track that would lead into administration at one time, I was the, uh, senior, uh, associate Dean, uh, responsible for all the academic programs at the school, which was probably the biggest job I had during this time. Uh, but over a period of, uh, uh, at least 15 years, uh, played a major role in administration that, uh, uh, factored into the plan, um, going forward. But, um, I think the, the idea has always been to, um, plan in terms of courses, in terms of influencing students, um, and, uh, various phases of this career have sort of been chunked out in different areas. Um, I I’m sure there was a conscious decision to move from logistics to, uh, services, for example. Uh, and then the, uh, the second, um, uh, I’m sorry, the, the, uh, coming out of retirement, uh, in 1990, in 19, in 2002, I then had a five year chunk in, uh, entrepreneurial management. So, uh, I suppose in a sense if you, if I went back, uh, I’d, there’d be a pattern there. And certainly, uh, if there were con there was conscious planning.

James Stock (29:41):

Okay. Now you mentioned, uh, Harvard with the sort of limitless, uh, resources. Do you think that was the ideal job for you or could it have been something else?

James Heskett (29:53):

Well, it certainly could have been something else, but one reason why it, uh, was ideal was that, um, on the one hand, uh, we had courses in which there were teaching groups that, that worked closely together and they helped me learn the ropes. Uh, first year marketing was one of those courses on the other, I was teaching this second year logistics course, which, which was mine. And so I had a, I had both the structure on the one hand, but I had the freedom on the other. And over the years it was the freedom. Uh, I think that, uh, I really came to value. Um, a as, uh, people say, you, you make your own way. There, there isn’t a lot of, uh, there isn’t a lot of instruction. And, uh, so a relatively free form environment I think was, uh, it appealed to me

James Stock (30:53):

Now, Jim, shifting gears for moment, uh, in some of your early comments, you mentioned, uh, some interesting terms being a prince and a king, uh, and you mentioned, uh, taking your future wife to a, uh, a professor’s home with discussion groups and so forth. Uh, I wanna talk a little bit about the personal side of, of Jim Hesket and, uh, tell us a little bit about, uh, your family, your wife. Do you have children and so forth? What are they doing? And all right,

James Heskett (31:21):

Fine. Uh, I met my wife in college. Um, I think it was during my senior year as a matter of fact, um, maybe a little earlier, um, went off to the army and, uh, upon arriving in Europe and seeing what great possibilities there were there. I wrote back to her and invited her to come to Europe and get married. So we were married in, uh, Austria. We had, then we had a church wedding in Germany. And, um,

James Stock (31:58):

So you proposed to the

James Heskett (32:00):

Mail. I proposed to the mail.

James Stock (32:01):

Oh,

James Heskett (32:01):

Interesting. Yes. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I think maybe I proposed in Indianapolis, I’m not sure, but, uh, that was kind of an indefinite engagement, as I recall. And, uh, I actually wrote the letter from Europe and said, why don’t you come over? And, uh, that was, uh, that was 54 years ago. So we’re, uh, we were married in 1955. Uh, we’ve had, uh, three children, daughter, Sarah, and a son, Charles, and a, and a son, Ben, our daughter, Sarah is a librarian and lives in Cambridge, uh, with us, um, not with us, but she lives in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Our son, Ben is an entrepreneur out in San Francisco, uh, in the, kind of the high tech world. And, um, and our son Charles is a, is in a buyout firm in New York. Okay. With, uh, with good buyout opportunities and, uh, very low credit available to engineer the transactions. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, we’ve, uh, lived in and around Cambridge and Belmont, Massachusetts during most of that time after having moved from Columbus. So, uh, we’ve had, uh, a wonderful life together. Still, still are mm-hmm <affirmative> and, uh, and enjoy combining a little work with, uh, a daily walk on the beach.

James Stock (33:37):

Okay. I’ve noticed in several of your books you’ve, uh, dedicated to your wife.

James Heskett (33:42):

Yes, yes. Yeah.

James Stock (33:44):

Now when your children were small and growing up, what was your main goal as a parent for them?

James Heskett (33:54):

Well, um, as most of us have experienced, uh, children can be pretty rebellious and, uh, Marilyn and I decided fairly early on that our main goal was to, uh, it was to remain friends with our children for their entire lives and our entire lives. And that’s what we’ve really tried to do. Very good. I think we’re on track. Yeah. But, uh, one never knows for sure. You know, <laugh>

James Stock (34:28):

Some have said that children go through a rebellious period, but then by the time they turn 30, they come back. Yeah.

James Heskett (34:35):

But, uh, I think they’re, I think that’s true. Some extent. Uh,

James Stock (34:40):

So when you look at your children, uh, none of them are involved in your profession, they’re doing other things. No. What do you think was the biggest influence you had on them?

James Heskett (34:52):

Well, um, I would hope that, um, it, it really had to do with a certain amount of integrity, um, and, uh, a responsibility toward others. Um, the value of close friends and, and maintaining the quality of those, those relationships. Um, I think I would hope maybe a work ethic. Uh, there were a lot of days when, uh, I was out early and home late or not home at all. Uh, we both experienced, uh, those on travel days and the like, um, but nevertheless, uh, an effort not to be gone for more than two or three nights maximum, we arrived at that goal pretty early on and to try to be there, uh, for dinner at night, which, uh, turned out to be, I think, a very important, uh, element of, of what we did also breakfast, but, uh, breakfast was always more health or Skelter. Mm-hmm <affirmative> with kids going to school, like, uh, nevertheless, a certain regularity and a, and a certain kind of level of integrity in one’s life. I hope

Chris Barnes (36:13):

Supply chain is boring as part of the supply chain. Now network the voice of supply chain, interested in sponsoring this show to help get your message out. Send a note to chris@thescd.com. We can also help with world class supply chain, education and certification workshops for you or your team. Thanks for listening. And remember, supply chain is boring.