Before he came back home to serve as a police officer, Michael Sugrue traveled around the world as part of the U.S. Air Force, going to South America, the Middle East, and Germany, among other places.

Although the greatest risks may have laid abroad, the greatest toll came from what he encountered day after day as a first responder. Training and treatment for traumatic stress injuries have changed over time, but there is still work to be done.

In this interview, Michael speaks with host Mary Kate Soliva about:

• The mental toll that comes with being ‘on’ and constantly vigilant as a police officer, even compared to military service

• Why our choice of words can be the difference between someone who needs help reaching out to ask for and receive assistance and struggling on alone

• How he ended up writing a book, ‘Relentless Courage: Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma’ with clinical psychologist Shauna ‘Doc’ Springer, Ph.D.

Intro/Outro (00:02):

Welcome to Veteran Voices. A podcast is dedicated to giving a voice to those that have served in the United States Armed Forces on this series, jointly presented by Supply Chain now and Vets to Industry. We sit down with a wide variety of veterans and veteran advocates to gain their insights, perspective, and stories from serving. We talk with many individuals about their challenging transition from active duty to the private sector, and we discuss some of the most vital issues facing veterans today. Join us for this episode of Veteran Voices.

Mary Kate Soliva (00:41):

Hello everyone. This is Mary Kate Soliva with you here on Veteran Voices. Thank you for joining us today for what’s teed up for. Gonna be a great episode and conversation with a veteran and an advocate who’s doing, who wears many hats and doing a lot of great things for the military veteran community. So stay tuned there. Just a quick programming note before we get started. This program is part of the supply chain now family, and today we are in partnership with Vets to Industry, an organization that’s near and dear to my hearts and help me during my transition from active duty. We learn more about this powerful nonprofit@vetstoindustry.org, and that’s vets with the number two industry and initiative that’s near and dear to my heart is the Guam Human Rights Initiative. You can learn more about the great work that they’re doing to stand up for human rights issues, guam hri.org and initiatives that they’re working on. And without further ado, I’m happy to introduce today in Army Veteran. So our guest today, he’s got numerous accolades about him, and like I said before, he wears many, many hats. So I’m excited to introduce, He’s a colonel turned leadership author turned coach, and I’m sure that’s just a short list of a long list of things that he’s done. So Rob, Rob Campbell, thank you so much for joining us today.

Rob Campbell (01:59):

Thanks, Mary. Kate, Great to be with you. Let’s have a chat.

Mary Kate Soliva (02:03):

I know, I’m super excited about this and I mean, the weather outside, I like to say it’s perfect from my part of the world, but, uh, it’s a little bit raining Drew today, but I really wanted to pump us up. I know just from a rank standpoint, I’m sure at some point that you’ve yelled at a soldier or two to help get the motivated and pumped up for the day with some motivation. So I was wonder you could start up our episode today with, uh, favorite motivational quote of yours, or maybe a lyric <laugh> sing if you want.

Rob Campbell (02:30):

Yeah, well, I, I’ve got a lot, but you know, I, it just seem to be, they seem timely for me when I might need the most. And I, I think the one that has helped really in transition is look back, but don’t stare. That means that, you know, I mean, I did 27 years, a lot of, you know, three combat tours. I think a lot of us that finish our military service look back with a lot of judgment, regret, maybe over decisions we made. And we get, I think, drawn into these memories and these moments that aren’t so pleasant. Uh, it’s okay to look back, you ought to do that, to learn and reflect, but don’t stare, look forward, look through the windshield. And that kind of reminds me to, to do that. So that’s, that motivates me anyway.

Mary Kate Soliva (03:12):

No, I, I actually, I really love that. And I’d say you’re probably the first one that I’ve ever heard that quote from. So I can think of many of times in my life where I probably stopped and stared for too long and, uh, couldn’t see over that next horizon. So I really love that and definitely think that pumps me up. I do wanna take our listeners a little bit back, I won’t say way back, but wanted to talk about your upbringing and, and where you grew up. Uh, cause I, I think it, for all, all of us, it really shapes who we are today. And so if you could tune just a little bit about where you grew up.

Rob Campbell (03:45):

Yeah, no doubt. Um, born and raised in Massachusetts. Lived there all my life. Uh, never really got out much, you know, Traveled, never went internationally anywhere. Family never moved around, lived in the same house. Um, and uh, I went to college there and, uh, when I went to school, it was a basketball fanatic growing up. Uh, good upbringing, three sisters and me, and pretty spoiled, you know, had just about everything I needed and wanted as a kid. And, you know, pretty standard upbringing in the, you know, late seventies and eighties. Uh, and when I went to college, I was a basketball fanatic and, but I didn’t make the team. And so there goes that passion to a screeching halt, right? And that’s how I found the army, because I was looking for something different and never thought of making it a career. I would’ve laughed at you in high school and if you asked me, I, you know, if you told me I was gonna be a career officer, I, I so would’ve said absolutely no way. But I joined, I just, you know, kind of joined for the money, you know, it’s weekend, you know, it’s national guard and it’s like, alright, this might be kind of cool, but really fell in love with it and it was, you know, loved the challenge and the chance to travel and all that went with it. And so joined, uh, the active duty in 1990 and off I went.

Mary Kate Soliva (04:54):

Oh, wow. I love it. Was that something that, did you have support from your, your family at that time? Like you said, as far as your upbringing goes, Like did you have any sort of mentors that really directed you into that direction to the military at that time?

Rob Campbell (05:08):

Well, my dad, my dad was certainly one, He was in the reserves, uh, so all very supportive of my decision. He wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. I think some of the older people I was speaking with at the time said, Look, this is not about money,

Mary Kate Soliva (05:21):

Right? Oh, yeah.

Rob Campbell (05:22):

Because at the time for me, you know, it was free tuition and monthly pay that, you know, I had nothing as a college to, but it wasn’t about money, it was about something bigger than myself. So my dad was really, I think, a big motivator for me to, to wanna serve and be like him.

Mary Kate Soliva (05:35):

Oh, I, I love that. I mean, because I’ve spoken to folks who didn’t have any military affiliation at all, and some who were like, No way, don’t join, or if you do join, join the Air Force <laugh>. So yeah, I mean, the fact that there was support in your family to join the Army. And I just, with as far as, so, so your dad was Army as well or did you end up picking opposite branch?

Rob Campbell (05:56):

Uh, no, he was Army as well. He’d just done some time in the reserves. He’d never been on active duty or anything, but he did several years on the reserves and, um, I always, you know, kind of washed it from a distance. Uh, never really, again, it was never anything that I had aspired to do, but as it turns out, it was a great fit for me. So, but yeah, he was, he was the one

Mary Kate Soliva (06:16):

That’s fantastic. I, um, as far as like with, with basketball, I mean that’s, that’s quite a change, but I, I think I’ve heard from many before about that parallel between athletics and sort of that leadership lessons that you learned from being involved in sports and then that with the military as well. Did you sort of draw parallels to that as a, as a pivot point for you from basketball to the Army?

Rob Campbell (06:40):

You know, I probably did Mary Kay. I, I guess, you know, really, I never thought of that. I do talk about that a lot in leadership where I compare what it is we’re trying to do in companies to sports teams, right? Because they’re going trying to go out and win a championship. And all that comes with that is the teamwork and the selflessness and dedicating yourself to something bigger than oneself. So maybe that was the parallel there that I didn’t realize was that the army was, you know, a cause bigger than me and it was a chance to be on another team, right. I didn’t make this team, so I joined that one.

Mary Kate Soliva (07:13):

I’ll tell you though, but you exchanged a squeaky sneakers for a pair of combat boots. Tell you one thing about me that steered me away from basketball was hearing the squeaky sneakers on the court going back and forth. <laugh>.

Rob Campbell (07:27):

Yeah.

Mary Kate Soliva (07:27):

Oh no. But, um, well, I wanted to talk about your, your time in, in uniform. I mean, obviously you wasn’t anything new as far as seeing the uniform since your dad has served. Um, I’ll beat the reserves, but to wear that uniform on, on the day to day, so, so we know the branch, um, but what did you do in the military and, and how did you sort of pick that path to go as far as that career choice, that job?

Rob Campbell (07:53):

Yeah, I don’t, uh, there was really no magic behind it or any kind of grand plan. I think, you know, it was just, uh, similars. I mean, I just went, joined the National Guard, they made me an 11 Bravo, which was infantry and okay cool <laugh>, right? So I’ll go do that. And uh, and then off I went and then, you know, went into rotc. Uh, and then when came time to pick a branch, I had looked at a few others. I looked at Armor. I thought that was pretty cool. Aviation was kind of neat. Uh, but I just, I guess really never did much with it and just kinda wind up in the infantry. Um, glad I did because it was, you know, a remarkable experience for me. But yeah, it wasn’t much to it back then just to kind of navigate and along. And even in the early days, it really no aspirations to have a long career make, you know, make a career out of it. And again, we weren’t at war, it was just a different time back then, you

Mary Kate Soliva (08:44):

Know, And I like how you mentioned about it being a different time because I just know from, for me, being a woman, veteran service member, going from Active and Reserve, there weren’t infantry women up until recently. And so I think during that, that time too, it’s like you just knew you were gonna end up working with men and sort of that brotherhood that developed from there. So it definitely was a different, different time. And I still, there’s a lot of credit to be dealt with infantry, actually wondering how the recruiters get folks to, to join the infantry and uh, but yeah, I think it’s definitely we need them. We need the infantry and just the skillset, the combat skills that you learn from that time with what you’re doing. Now, I’d love to know about where you went, cause I know you’ve probably traveled all over the world, uh, the infantry Yeah. And affords you that opportunity too. But could you tell us about like where you went, sort of maybe a favorite place that you did get to go if there is one that the Army sent you

Rob Campbell (09:40):

<laugh>. Oh, sure. Well, that’s a tough question cuz we were in some amazing places and, but to your last point about women in the infantry, I fully support, I think that was a smart decision. And I was in command of a brigade, the hundred first Airborne Division that was bringing women into the infantry at that time. So it was kind of new to the Army, right? But I applauded it and I saw the benefits of doing that. So yeah, total fan. Look the infantry’s a tough sell for anybody cuz it is just hard living, you know, male or female. Yeah. So it’s a, it’s a tough sell for a lot of folks, but there’s a lot of nostalgia there, there’s a lot of history there, a lot of camaraderie there. Uh, which I would, I benefited from. So when I went off into the active duty in 1990, uh, went off and did all the things that infantry officers do, went to ranger school, got qualified, went Airborn school, got qualified and I went off to my first unit at Fort Lewis Washington where I would had a platoon.

Rob Campbell (10:36):

So it’s kind of my baptism into leadership at that level. Moved down to Fort Polk, Louisiana for a year, you know, stayed there. Then I did a logger tour out of Hawaii where I committed two companies out there. Had a chance to serve back at Fort Lewis as a General’s aid, really eye opening experience to be next to a person that, that was at the highest levels of the army, right. To kinda watch that up close and personal. And it was fascinating. And then really beneficial assignment. And then off to command general Staff college at, uh, fort level North Kansas for a year. That was a wonderful place to be. And, um, 82nd Airborne division for five years and uh, to in Iraq. And then, uh, went off to command of Batty up in Alaska for two years. That was one of our favorite assignments. Incredible life up there. And, and um, of course I, we joke, I only was up there like nine months <laugh> and I was gone to combat my, my family was up there for two years. But yeah, we really embraced it. It was really fantastic assignment. Then they sent us to Germany from Alaska, how we got back.

Mary Kate Soliva (11:38):

Oh, what a hard sell there

Rob Campbell (11:40):

<laugh>. Yeah, no kidding.

Mary Kate Soliva (11:42):

I just came back from there, so I’m glad you brought that up. I just, my first time ever in Germany, I just got back so incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Campbell (11:50):

It was, yeah, we really enjoyed that assignment for so many, many reasons. I think that was probably up there near the top just because it had so much to offer for us. We had, I had just finished a combat tour in Afghanistan, so it was kind of a nice break, you know, to slow down a little bit, reconnect with the family, my son’s flourished there. We had a really nice little community. And of course the culture and the travel and all that wrapped into one. It was just really fantastic. And then I went off to the Army War College in Pennsylvania. It was a great assignment for us for a year. And then two years of Fort Campbell Kentucky with the hundred firstborn division. That’s a hallmark assignment for me. I mean, I had the rank of colonel and command of a brigade of nearly 5,000 women.

Mary Kate Soliva (12:30):

Wow.

Rob Campbell (12:30):

Really remarkable experience. And took a portion of the brigade forward to Afghanistan. Uh, and then once brigade command was done, it was the first time in my professional career that my path on the Army’s path started to diverge. My wife and I wanted to go off in a different direction. Our youngest had graduated high school, so really schools and location wasn’t an issue anymore. And we just kind of wanted to dive into the private sector and try something new. So we decided to retire and off we went. And, uh, there it is a ramp on 27 years of military sort,

Mary Kate Soliva (13:01):

Just in a blink of an eye as

Rob Campbell (13:04):

They say. Yeah, kidding.

Mary Kate Soliva (13:06):

Well, I I love that you brought up your family too, cuz you know, we have some service members that they, they don’t have their families moving around and, and some of us that do and, and some end up stuck at one duty station like Fort Bragg for most of their career. And others like yourself moved around, like, so would you, would you mind speaking a little bit to that about the family experience and moving around to different locations?

Rob Campbell (13:29):

I’m glad that my kids were raised in the army. I’m glad that we moved from place to place to place. Cause it really gave them exposure that a lot of other children would not have gotten.

Mary Kate Soliva (13:40):

Yeah.

Rob Campbell (13:41):

So they, they benefited great greatly from that. Look, combat tours were difficult. And yes, we did strip them away from their support network and their friends time and time again. But it didn’t phase them. They came through fine. You know, there were some tough spots in combat, but, uh, they came through just fine. And, and really they were raised in a values based society, which I think I cherish the most. So like, I would come home and talk about selfless service and duty and loyalty and things like that. And I got into their DNA and uh, that’s important. And they got to see the world and I’d make friends all over the place. So they’re very worldly in that respect.

Mary Kate Soliva (14:16):

Love that.

Rob Campbell (14:16):

We kept the family together. A lot of people elect not to do that for a variety of reasons. Right. Uh, but we, even, even pulling our kids outta school and keeping ’em together was very important to us.

Mary Kate Soliva (14:25):

And I, I assume that too. One of the beautiful things about with the military child is like, they really do have friends in different times then. So it’s a matter of just calling a buddy. They always have a couch to sleep on. <laugh>, you just, and, and that vast experience, I think it really opens your eyes to the rest of humanity and just makes you think about things in a different way. Yeah. And that can be really beautiful. So I love that your family like sucks together. I mean, it’s just one of those, again, I could say a success story that some veterans don’t have. So I think that’s, that was beautiful to bring up. And just as far as where you went, I’d love to hear a little bit more about your experience commanding, like, would you say 5,000, over 5,000? I’d love to touch on that bit. Cause I don’t get this opportunity every day where I got to speak to a veteran who’s led that many people. So if you could speak to that and, and some of the lessons learned there, that’d be great.

Rob Campbell (15:18):

Sure. So it was a brigade nearly, it was like a little under 5,000. I, I had, gosh, I think seven battalions and each of those battalion just somewhere between 400, 400, 700 men and women. So it, it’s a large enterprise and it was leadership at a whole new level. And you know, an army brigade is really designed to be able to pick up and move and go somewhere or fight almost on its own. It does, it needs a support network to it. But I had a a, a deep reservoir of leaders there that could do a lot of things for me. I had senior staff members that had been in over 10 years that knew the army of a more seasoned, So my role was a bit easier, a bit more strategic in terms of steering the organization. I had this team that could help me do that.

Rob Campbell (16:01):

So just an amazing experience. My role became more of guidance in steering and, and dip, sticking where I needed to, to make sure the brigade was on the right track and doing those things and to make sure that my intent got all the way down to the bottom, uh, which was a tremendous challenge. So I would spend a lot of time thinking about my words and my guidance because as a brigade commander, when you say something, it sticks and people latch onto that and they’ll drive that home all the way. So you had to be very careful and very deliberate about what you said and did. Yes. And, you know, so that experience there was, was very new. Challenging in the respect that, you know, I, I was counseling and mentoring much more senior officers. I mean, these were very talented men and women that were handpicked by the army to be where they were.

Rob Campbell (16:48):

So it was difficult for me to kind of sit in front of them and say, Okay, here’s what I see in your performance and here’s what I’d like you to improve. And then get them to open up a bit about themselves. Uh, though very enlightening, very, um, you know, incredible in terms of the experience that it gave me. Just a tremendous, you know, teaching of leadership on how to lead and how to do things and, and the effect that one can have at that level really, really important. The thing that’s different about, you know, brigade command is that you’re less, you know, kind of dirty in the trenches day in and day out. You’ve got people below you that can do that. Your role is to a little bit more of the up and out to understand what’s happening above you to ensure you understand what’s happening at the highest levels of the army.

Rob Campbell (17:31):

And certainly with your division commander what needs to occur. And then bringing that back down into your organization was really the role that I fulfilled and seeing things laterally outside of my organization that this is why we have company grade officers and then field grade officers in the army company grades, see what’s right in front of them. They’re able to, to touch it, direct it, move it quickly, field grade officers see the field, which is a much wider view, a much longer view in terms of where the organization needs to go. And you don’t turn a brigade on a dime. It shifts an alters slowly. And so this is just a different application of leadership on how to, to lead at that level. Incredible experience, uh, what I learned and just a, a an amazing opportunity to grow and create an next set of leaders for the Army. It was just such a privilege that I, I cherish it to the day.

Mary Kate Soliva (18:25):

And I, I really appreciate you sharing that because I think you were experience, I mean, each one of us has, has unique stories, but not every HSE as smaller as you go up that tier and up the ranks. And so someone at your level, like I said, does, it’s not every day that I get to talk to a colonel who, and not every colonel has led even the size that you were forwarded the opportunity and trusted to lead as well. So I appreciate that. And I, I’m really curious just from like a non-commissioned officer standpoint as to did you have, what sort of lessons learned did you have from those that were subordinate to you? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as you know, sometimes, like I know for me at my level I learned so much from, from my junior soldiers and just any sort of stories there that you may have. Mm-hmm.

Rob Campbell (19:09):

<affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Well, they taught me a lot of things. They taught me that everyone just wants to be treated the same. Like I mentioned earlier, I had a lot of new females coming into the brigade and so I was very focused on making sure that I was leading properly and setting the right environment for them to come in. So I would have these sensing sessions with them to them just individually as, as a group and talk to them about, you know, how they would do or to just hear from them. Uh, and frankly they just wanted to be treated like everybody else. They didn’t want anything, anything special. That’s one of the things I learned. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, one of the things, you know, I, the experience that a non-commissioned officer brings into a conversation is priceless because they have done, uh, what I’m about to do over and over and over again.

Rob Campbell (19:51):

Like my command sergeant major, you know, this was my first time commanding a brigade. Many of the things that we did, you get one and only shot at it. And many of the things that we did, uh, were the first time for me doing them. Now I had deep experience myself to bring into these places. And I had been in, uh, operations like we had been in many times before, but never as a, as the leader of a brigade. Well, what these NCOs could bring to me was experience of having done that multiple times. They could see things that I could not, they could see, Hey boss, I’m picking up some signals that this is gonna happen, you know, next week or 10 days from now or by, you know, close the business today cuz I’ve seen it before. And that was invaluable advice to me to listen to that and take that in. And so they taught me to listen intently and they also taught me to, you know, kind of judge things a little differently and see things a little differently. They kind of opened my aperture greatly in that respect. So tremendous learning experience from

Mary Kate Soliva (20:52):

Them. I love that. And it just goes to show, I mean, taking the opportunity to step back and actually listen, like you said, having those sensing sessions, uh, really creating that transparency and that environment to where soldiers want to open up, uh, is really valuable. And there’s definitely a lot of parallels which sort of segues into the work that I know you’re doing a lot in leadership now and drawing a lot of parallels. Uh, so I’d love to to hear sort of that, um, this sort of lessons learned. Like if you were speaking to a room of those transitioning now, what sort of advice would you give them looking back now? Yeah, yeah.

Rob Campbell (21:32):

That’s a great question. Uh, here is the central piece of advice. I give all of them. It’s this stay flexible because transition is difficult. I’m not sure when you put an ED on transition, I’m six years deep and still transitioning in many ways, still trying to fit back into this society that I left 27 years ago. Uh, still trying to understand private business and how things function on the outside world because I knew the army and how it, how it ran, uh, very deeply. So the goal in transition is to get it more right than wrong. Cause there’ll be things that a transitioning service member will go through that I just can’t tell them. You know, sitting there together in a room while, especially while they’re still wearing the uniform, yes. But I know they’re gonna go through changes. And so that means that they might pick the wrong job, they might pick the wrong geography, they might choose something, uh, that’s not really nested with who they truly are.

Rob Campbell (22:29):

And wouldn’t it be nice Mary Kate if they could course correct easier, Right? Instead of, okay, I bought a house, the boat, the car, I’m all anchored down here. I’m stuck, I can’t move. Versus no, you don’t want, I’ve learned that this isn’t it and we’re gonna pull up stakes and move somewhere else. Wouldn’t it be nice if you could course correct. So stay flexible as number one. The other one is the question you have to ask, which does not get asked in transition. This is the question that gets asked in transition. Mary Kay, thanks for your service. What do you want to do next?

Mary Kate Soliva (23:03):

Yes. Very loaded question. The real

Rob Campbell (23:04):

Question. Yeah. The real question is, who are you?

Rob Campbell (23:08):

And that’s, that’s key. So I would ask this group, who are you? You’ve got to answer that question because the military told us who we were. Yes. They made us into soldiers, sailors, airmen, marine coast, Guardsmen and women. And stripped of us, stripped of us, stripped us of our individuality and made us into these service members. And we were given our occupational skill and our career path and told to move out. Well now on the outside in transition, one has a blank sheet of paper. Yes. And that’s daunting. And that’s why we need to return to who we truly are as individuals and think deep. And here’s a quick way to do that. If money wasn’t an issue, what would you do tomorrow? Right. House is paid for, car, food, everything. What would you do? Think deeply about that. And the other question is, think about it. Go back in your life five times when you were in it, you felt positive, confident. I mean you were just getting it done. Go all the way back to your childhood one of those five times. Find those first and then, then look at them and see what kind of parallels there are, what kind of, what’s the same about all of them. And pull those things out. And it speaks to what one’s passion might be.

Mary Kate Soliva (24:16):

I have never heard the last one, but I think that’s so important. And I love what you said about, is there really an ED at transitioning? Cause that always sort of gives me hope. I just, I just reflected on my one year point. I, I got off of active duty last year, August timeframe and I was starting to, to sort of have those feelings too. So I think your advice just now really speaks to me and sort of where I’m at right now in, in my transition. Cuz I’ll still say that I’m, I still feel like I’m going through it. I definitely thought that there were things that I had to accomplish within that first year, but I come to speaking to other veterans, they’re like, you know, five, six years out and they’re like, we’re still figuring it out. So I, it definitely puts my mind at ease to think, okay, it’s not like something, there’s not a race that I have to have all these things done.

Mary Kate Soliva (25:05):

And I was so adamant about not being a statistic, as they say, so many veterans get so many three or four jobs within their first year coming off of active duty. And it is something that I really took to heart to make sure that I found the right culture fit. Which again, that phrase like culture fit, I didn’t know what that was on active duty. We didn’t talk about like the right culture bit and like finding and all these different buzzwords. Like even networking. Networking wasn’t a word that I really thought much about while I was on active duty. I mean, the army sort of puts people in front of me to connect me with. I don’t have to go out and find people to connect with. So lots of lessons learned a lot of value in what you’re saying.

Rob Campbell (25:46):

Yeah. Yeah. It’s tough. It’s just very difficult.

Mary Kate Soliva (25:50):

But even like the, but I, I I would say that you have done very well for yourself. I mean, like I, I was, we just uh, talked about before the episode came on that I got to meet you at a volunteer event, uh, with uh, the Suit of Warriors event and getting life not only my free suit, but I got an opportunity to meet you there and, uh, you were talking about your book and so just really wanna take this opportunity to sort of talk about the things that you are passionate about and the things that you’re doing right now. Cuz I’m sure there’s others out here, listeners wanting to write a book and don’t even know where to start. You did it so. Sure. Yeah.

Rob Campbell (26:25):

Yeah. Look, if I could do any of this stuff, anybody can, um, no, no. I’m not the sharpest knife in a drawer. Well, when I transitioned I knew one thing and I knew that my core purpose was to make the difference in the lives of others through optimistic leadership. I went through a course that helped me kind of tease out that core purpose. I didn’t know where exactly I would apply that and how I would apply that. But I knew I had to fulfill that core purpose, right? And that’s what everybody needs to know as they transition out is why am I placed on this earth? What is it I bring? I talk to a lot of service members that are transitioning. Many of them, if not all want to serve. They want to continue to serve in some way. And I’m no different. I was looking for something like that.

Rob Campbell (27:05):

I took some time off after I, I transitioned, now I’ve got, you know, a pension, colonel’s pension. So it’s a differentiator for me for sure. And I realized that, but it wasn’t paying all the bills. I had to find something. But I stumbled into book writing. I’d always enjoyed writing. I never had a brand plan to write books, but kinda stumbled into what I had met a guy that had done it and I just talked to him a little bit about it and ended up writing my book in spring of 17 about leadership. It was really a great journey. I had some coaches or handrails as I called them that were not military, they were nonmilitary, they knew about book writing. That helped me in the process.

Mary Kate Soliva (27:37):

That’s an important note I think to make. What, could you add a little bit about that to touch on why you chose people that hadn’t served to be those handrails?

Rob Campbell (27:47):

Because, because I was in their neighborhood now and not back in my own. And I think more veterans need to do this now. Look, we have to stay connected to other veterans. You know, we have that bond that we can’t explain to anybody else. But the fact is, you and I are on the other side now, that iron gate of that military base that has closed shut and we’re now in this space where most other people occupy and we’re outnumbered. And I don’t mean to say that, that to be defensive and, and to isolate ourselves quite the opposite. I needed that hand. Those people I could meet, I could learn from. Most of the people I’ve learned from on the outside and my encore life have been people that never served a day in their life because I’m in private business, many of them a decade plus younger than me.

Rob Campbell (28:31):

And that’s okay cuz I’m open to learning and growing and they’ve taught me a lot. And so the book writing was just one example of many as I’ve traveled this journey. Yes. And got that done. So I got the book published and at the same time I thought, okay, I could, I could sell this. I could, you know, coach, teach and speak off it. So I started that business. Uh, and it was hard, very difficult driving. It took about nine months to get my first client just cuz nobody knew who I was. I didn’t have a brand. I kind of had to go out there and market myself. So I did. And I got that rolling. It was good. It was some ups and downs. I almost stepped away from it a few times. Wasn’t all a bed of roses. It’s hard work. And I learned a lot along the journey.

Rob Campbell (29:08):

And one thing I learned was about entrepreneurship. That there’s more than one path. The startup, there’s buy existing and there’s franchise. And I realized that I didn’t look at all of those three. So I really got interested in entrepreneurship, wanting to buy another, an existing business. I saw as the path that I could take to get a team back around me, give back to the community, continue to serve and continue to do my leadership stuff. Well, about that time I was writing the second book on transition. I published that right before the pandemic hit. And my wife and I moved from the coast up to the mountains of the southern Appalachians of, uh, Johnson City. And I started networking down here and I found a business, uh, a blinds company. There’s, uh, wind, uh, shutters, blinds and shades. And I bought it. I bought the property and I bought another business, which is a frame shop that my wife runs. So it’s been really great adventure for us that allows me to give back to the community here. So it’s just been a journey of learning and trying things out and it continues on. I I don’t know exactly where the path leads. I’m trying to kinda live in the moment and enjoy what I’ve got here and now. And so, yeah, so I’m a busy guy.

Mary Kate Soliva (30:12):

<laugh>, I appreciate your vulnerability and that it wasn’t all about of roses because I think with some, when they look at it, they, they may lean your success to the fact that you are an officer or that you have an education. I can’t tell you how many enlisted service members I speak to that don’t even wanna give it a chance because they already self-select out. You know, I don’t have a college degree, so I don’t think I’ll be successful in that. And, and I always try to tell, you know, self-selecting out, like do not do that. It’s so much easier to do that. But to take the chance that even no matter what rank we came out as, it’s still a lot of work. A lot of work. Yep.

Rob Campbell (30:53):

Look, the next chapter has to be better than the last mm-hmm.

Mary Kate Soliva (30:56):

<affirmative>. And just building off of, like you said, it was something. And I, and I really love that you brought up your wife as well, because I think just the support system that’s around us, I don’t think that chain, that part changes from the time that we’re in the military. Having that support system and that network, having our family to lean on and then again, reaching out, surrounding ourselves with that team, that tribe, that family around you to lean on and valid points all around on reaching out. I think it took me a little bit longer to realize, to connect with folks that hadn’t served. I was so pigeonholed in connecting, but as one mentor told me, Why are you gonna ask for advice from those who are still serving? They haven’t transitioned yet. That’s what I was doing in the beginning. I was talking to those who, my supervisor and those outranked me. Like, what should I do when they don’t even know they’re just as lost as I am. <laugh>. So true. Um, wanted to to definitely talk about sort of, um, if you could touch a little bit on some of the things that you have written about with regards to leadership and some of the parallels that you were mentioning before. Um, even if you wanna touch on the sports one, I would love to hear about that.

Rob Campbell (32:06):

Yeah, sure. Well, the, uh, an organization at the end of the day is a collection of people, whether it’s a private company or it’s a military formation and you’re trying to influence those people to get something done and grow and become better people. And so I took all those things that I learned in the military, all my mistakes and all the lessons that I learned that are brought them in the private sector because as I say, any of these businesses, I promise you’ll not come across any leadership challenge I haven’t already faced and probably screwed up a hundred times and learned from it. And I’m now ready to, to help you help you know, know so you can prevent not making the same mistake. So there’s a lot of lot of parallels there in terms of motivating people to do what they gotta do and, you know, bringing in a a, a noble cause to get behind giving back to the community or just doing something for the environment or society or something like that.

Rob Campbell (32:55):

That’s a noble cause inside of a company that they can do set up values. A vision, your real vision in terms of where the organization needs to go. A good culture connecting with people on a very human level because we did that a military, we knew each other on a much deeper level and our families because lives were at stake and it mattered. And I wanted to know everything I could about those around me. Same thing applies in a business, right? The team parallels, you know, one of the things I advocate for a lot is the huddle, the morning huddle every morning you huddle. Why, why the teams huddle before they take the field. Well it’s because their survival depends upon it. If they lose the game, the route, the season’s over. So they huddle, they get synchronized, they share things, they see a teammate who’s down to lift that person up. So it’s that same parallel with a teammate. You know, we do that on in sports, but yet we don’t do it in a business. But in a business we’re trying to accomplish the same thing. And it’s a championship, it gets defined a little different, but it’s a championship, you know, otherwise you’re out. So that’s why you kind of huddle as a team. That’s why you, you know, you use teamwork. Teamwork is one of the values we have here and all about blinds because I know we can’t survive about it.

Mary Kate Soliva (34:05):

Yeah. It’s like, I love that point about the, the team huddle and I don’t know, it just made me think of the penguin huddle because I just remember being at one of the, the army’s beloved training schools without, uh, food or, and just freezing <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we were just like huddled in, in a circle. But it was a chance for us to also uplift one another and to say, you know, for those who are wanting to quit to say don’t quit, you’re not doing this by yourself. And just that, um, reassurance that, and, and it’s so even when you see like that six foot three soldier that’s like well over 200 pounds and you see that he’s even wanting to break and, and I mean it just really goes to show like with the army, I mean just the service in general, but I’m also army so to speak to that, that the challenges that we face and the roadblocks that we face, that that comradery is something that team huddle. It’s like second to none. You know, that, that feeling that you get to be able to uplift no matter like your size, your educational background, uh, at that point we are stripped, we are all the same level <laugh> Yep. Of survival. So, uh, really wanted to just, if you take this time, if you wanted to give any shoutouts to any, any mentors that have taken you under their wing or really helped you along the way, love for you to, to give them a shoutout and just share about what they did for you.

Rob Campbell (35:26):

Yeah, there’s a few of them. John Pay Cho was, uh, he’s a veteran business and founder, co-founder of Vet CEO that taught me a lot about business and coached me into this, this new business venture. I just bought Sean Olson in Wilmington, North Carolina, the uh, CEO of cloud wise tech company. It was one of my real, my first big client and just allowed me to come in there and help him make a difference with his team and get a vision created and, you know, plant some leadership seeds there. So really appreciate him. This community here, God, the list goes on. Bob Kaler from the Chamber of Commerce here in Johnson City, who opened his door to me, met me and introduced me to some folks and has been very, very supportive. You know, and it’s, the community is really that matter a lot, uh, that I give a shout out here and this, this community here at Johnson City King Sport and Bristol, Tennessee, the tri-cities that had just been so warm and welcoming, uh, so much so that I decided to plant some roots and stick around for a while.

Mary Kate Soliva (36:25):

Oh, I love that. And isn’t it an incredible feeling to set down roots? I mean, it was like, I think until when I was leaving Fort Bragg and I had already bought a, a home, um, a few years ago, but when I got stationed at brag, I kept the house up here and uh, I remember coming over the mountain and just seeing the city and I was like, it just, it was like that first time that I really felt like I was, was coming home. Um, and then that sense of being able to like, this is where I’ve laid roots. I love this community. It’s a great feeling to come back to the town that has really opened their arms to you. And so, and I definitely hope our listeners have found that. And if our listeners, you’ve dropped so many golden nuggets today, just want an opportunity if you could share about there’s anything that we didn’t touch on you wanna bring up or just how our listeners can get in touch with you, uh, to pick your brain some more.

Rob Campbell (37:15):

No, we’ve got a great conversation here. You’ve asked some really good questions and we’ve covered a lot of grounds for sure. I am serious about connecting and helping. Just helped, you know, it’s just a way for me to continue to serve. Best place to find me at my website, rob campbell leadership.com. Rob campbell leadership.com or on LinkedIn, Rob Campbell leadership, um, Bra Act. And there I got 20,000 followers and

Mary Kate Soliva (37:37):

Great.

Rob Campbell (37:38):

So it’s a lot of fun interacting there. It’s a very professional space and yeah, love to connect with folks on in those spaces there if I can help them out in any way if it’s military transition or leadership.

Mary Kate Soliva (37:49):

Well, thank you Rob, again, for your candidness, your vulnerability, just sharing some of your life lessons learned. And there’s a lot, and I, again, really, I really love with this episode are those parallels that you, you shared with regards to leadership service and what we’re doing now on the other side of the gate. Uh, so thank you again so much for your, your time. And big thank you again, shout out to your, your family who may tune in this episode later, but, um, I mean just, you know, behind way to say every great leader, a great support, great family, so just love that support network that you have as well. Uh, so on behalf of the entire team here at Veteran Voices, I wanna sincerely thank you for your time. Uh, we invite all of of our listeners today to subscribe wherever you get your podcast from and tune in and see what rob’s up to. And, uh, will there be any books coming out? Rob, should we stay tuned? Do you have anything else in the works right now?

Rob Campbell (38:44):

Okay, here it is. I’ll let All

Mary Kate Soliva (38:46):

It is. I was like, I almost closed this out and I was like, wait, I forgot.

Rob Campbell (38:50):

I, I am working on book number three about crisis leadership and management and I’m excited to get that on the road. Let’s take a little bit of time, but stick with me on LinkedIn, stay in touch there and I’ll definitely blast it out once I get close.

Mary Kate Soliva (39:03):

Okay. Yes. See, I, it was like something I was forgetting there, but, um, that’s incredible. Again, book three for someone. Here we go. 11 Bravo turned Officer Turn, Colonel <laugh>. So again, many hats. So, uh, leadership, author. So just really, again, that goes to what we always say here on Veteran Voices to stay motivated, do good, give forward, and be the change that’s needed. So on that note, we will see you next time here on Veteran Voices. Take care of everybody.