What’s the difference between a mentor and a coach? Aren’t leadership coaches just for executives? Mary Morand and John McKay have the answers, and they’re sharing them (and more) on this episode of The Winning Link. The two help professional teams rewire how they work together through their leadership and team coaching business, Morand McKay. Join Billy as he chats with them about how to help teams break out of old patterns, work more effectively together, align on purpose and goals and more.

Billy Taylor (00:00:06):

Welcome to the winning link, a show dedicated to dissecting business and leadership excellence. We take a deep dive into various aspects of business and operational excellence, current events and personal and leadership development topics. The guests on the podcast will be credible industry leaders and practitioners offering a portfolio of techniques and methods for positive growth. Welcome to the winning link. We have some exciting guests on the show today. We have John McKay and Mary Moran, a Miranda McKay coaching. I’m Billy Taylor with the winning link, a show dedicated to current events, leadership, and personal development for business growth and personal enhancements. So without further ado, let me let my guests introduce himself. Start with you, Mary, tell me a little about yourself and a little about the

Mary Morand (00:00:57):

Company. Okay. Uh, glad to do it. Thanks for having us, Billy. Um, I’m Mary Miranda of Miranda McKay, and let’s see, there’s so much to share. I’m gonna, I’m gonna whittle it down into the stuff that really matters. I, I spent about 30 years in financial services. Um, a lot of that time, couple, few decades, uh, on, in human capital space. Um, I’ve worked with teens and leaders in executive coaching capacity. Um, for, for all that time, um, aligning with business owners, business leaders and working to help them improve their outcomes in their business. Um, and I couldn’t be more thrilled to be partnered with John, uh, and we met about six years ago or so, and, um, CRO path crossed paths found that we had a lot of the same interests in terms of how we can help leaders and teams be successful. And so their therein was born, uh, the beginning of a business. And, uh, we’ve, we’ve been building it since then.

Billy Taylor (00:01:54):

Well, good. Well one thank you for coming on the show and I’m looking forward to engaging with you. So John, tell us little about yourself.

John McKay (00:02:03):

Well, Billy, it’s good to see you again. And when we get together, we always have a lot of fun and I’m looking forward to having a few, a few chuckles along the way today. <laugh> uh, so John McKay, um, I’m a Canadian born and raced in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, uh, spent a lot of time here in the us where I am now, um, spent pretty close to 40 years in executive search, uh, had my own firm and then worked for, um, two large international firms. Uh, and I was sitting the other day thinking about how many people I’ve actually had a conversation with. And so with my coaching practice and my executive search practice, I think I probably had close to 35 to 38,000 individual conversations with leaders about leadership teams and everything informative with regards to how these leaders think about working within organizations. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

John McKay (00:02:54):

So that gives me a pretty interesting repertoire to pull from in conversation, but the fun of what Mary and I do is, uh, we help teams find their secret sauce. Uh, we really work with teams to get connected, to have the combination conversation they need to have and to rewire how they work together. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and, and that is just a ton of fun. And the nice thing about what we bring is I’ve always worked with teams from the outside in working across large systems and large organizations and, and within industries, uh, and Mary comes from inside, um, the large financial institutions. So we both have different perspectives, but our perspectives gel quite nicely in terms of how we blend and what we give to our teams and our, and our leaders.

Billy Taylor (00:03:39):

Very good. Well, I’ll tell you, John and Mary, again, I’m excited to have you on the, on the show. Now I look for guests that are practical. All right. They don’t come with theory. They understand theory, you know, John I’ve had a personal relationship with you, uh, for those that are watching the show today, John was actually my executive coach. And so there was a time in my career where I needed a coach and I was willing to invest in my personal funds, not the funds of a company, uh, in, and, and John. And, and I’ll tell you, I’m still benefiting from that relationship. And, and so it’s still paying residuals for me. And so that’s why I’m excited to have John and Mary on the call. So maybe there’s some nuggets you can take from the day’s episode. Uh, with that being said, let’s, let’s get into it because I always say knowledge is power and I love reading books. And so I’m gonna start with you, John, this time. Tell me what’s your favorite book and why?

John McKay (00:04:45):

Hmm. Well, I, I, I, I continue to come back to one that I haven’t read it in quite some time, but it’s all quite on the Western front. Uh, it was written by a veteran of the first world war. He was a German veteran, uh, when he came home, he saw the disconnection and the disillusion within his own country, uh, and brought forward a, an interesting perspective of what it meant to come home after being on the losing end of that particular, um, world war. And so what I like about it is it brings perspective. Uh, and I think all of us, particularly in what we do as coaches and, and when we work with leaders, if we can help one another find perspective and move through perspectives, it helps us create the opportunity to be able to work with what emerges versus what we think is happening.

Billy Taylor (00:05:36):

Very good. Mary and yourself.

Mary Morand (00:05:39):

Yeah. I, I don’t think I could ever get through that book, John. Um, actually, so, um, the difference between us comes forward again, my book is, is a typical kind of, uh, book Cal, Cal Newport’s deep work. Um, and it’s all about finding focus. So I I’m working to read more things that aren’t so, um, leadership and team focused, but so far that that’s not really working for me. Uh, but this book in particular, um, especially when there’s so much going on, I mean, when, when we’re doing work with teams, it’s, it’s complex, it’s complicated and there are a lot of moving parts and there are times where you have to just step back and say, okay, how do I need to bring forward, um, my own focus in order to achieve what I need to achieve and, and going deep in order to do that, creating the space for that, um, is, is a necessary, is a necessary thing. So, um, I like that book. It’s a bit of an inspiration. I hold it out there on the, on the corner of the desk and when things are frazzled, I go, yep. You’re not doing it. Work, work, work a little more deeply. So

Billy Taylor (00:06:43):

Very good. Okay. Now let’s shift gears a little bit and dive into, uh, executive coach executive and team coaching. And so with that being said, let’s talk about what’s the difference between coaching and mentoring. And so Mary, I’m gonna start with you on that one. Mm.

Mary Morand (00:06:59):

Um, you know, what, there’s we get that question, um, a fair amount and there’s some differences, and there are some similarities, but I guess I, to, to be really most simple with it, I think mentoring is about working with somebody and they’ve been on the path before. They’ve got a lot of wisdom cuz they traveled the same journey and they’re able to come back and share their perspective. Here’s what worked for me. Um, here’s what you might find useful. And there’s, there’s some good for sure that comes out of that. I, we highly recommend that, that, that people have mentors all the time. You should always have a mentor. The difference though, between that and coaching is coaching isn’t about having had a shared pathway. Coaching is more about being on side, alongside a person and helping them see their own path and coaches don’t share so much about their own journey. It’s sharing about, um, asking questions from the perspective of what it is that the client’s trying to achieve, um, to help them see, see the path ahead. That’s how, that’s how I would characterize it. John. I don’t know if you wanna add something,

John McKay (00:08:04):

Uh, um, coaching, uh, I, one of the premise, one of the things that brought me to coaching was, was, uh, really onboarding the understanding that we all have the answers within us. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, we’ve got a dilemma, we’ve got a problem. There’s something we need to work through. And you know, our, our body’s telling us that there’s something here mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, but how do I get to it to, to be able to tap it? And how do I work with myself to, to understand what is it that I need? What is the best use of me to solve this problem going forward? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And as a coach, uh, you know, I see our stance as a coach to walk next to our client and maybe half a step behind with our hand on their shoulder and just help them discover what it is that they need to do to get to where they want to be.

John McKay (00:08:55):

And to really get clarity around what’s in the way mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if I’m going to move it out of the way, how do I do that? Mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, and the fun thing about our style of coaching, the way we’ve come into the business and how we operate in the business is we’re not formulaic. Uh, we don’t work off a tick, the box coaching methodology we’re very much into, uh, and you and I, Billy can attest to this in terms of, you know, I think it’s been now, but almost five years since you and I, uh, first started working together. Yes. Um, and, and our style is very much to work with what emerges, uh let’s let’s let’s see what surfaces let’s understand what it’s all about. Let’s, let’s unpack it and let’s understand what you want to do with it and what you want to be with it and continue to move it forward.

Billy Taylor (00:09:41):

Yes. You know, John, as I was going through it, right. I had several mentors. Right. And Mary goes, besides back to what you were saying, they were, they were talking to me based on their, their experience, right. Their, their need at the time. And, and I was drowning. I that’s, when I realized I needed a coach and there’s a difference between mentoring and coaching and, you know, John, you provided that clear segue. And I recently used one of your, your statements with my daughter, um, and my wife. It was funny. She, she delivered the message and she says, what is that thing? You always say, your coach taught you how to keep the conversation safe, how right. My mentors couldn’t talk to me about that. That’s one that I use today and now guess what I’m telling my own children around when she’s going into a meeting with her boss, when she’s going into a career discussion and she’s doing, she’s approaching it.

Billy Taylor (00:10:39):

And the fact that she’s gonna put the facts on the table, John, but she’s gonna keep the conversation safe. Right. And some of the things you were teaching me and I was talking about retiring and I wanted to know how to go about it. And some of these things, I had to make some critical to, uh, conversations with people. And I didn’t know how, and John helped me navigate it, navigate through that. And I’ll tell you, I I’m, I’m eternally grateful for that and it’s still playing residuals. So, um, I’m gonna go back into next step. Let’s talk about what’s going on with teams or individuals that will require coaching. Right? What, what happens there that, that, that, that makes a decision or triggers the need for a coach John’s starting with you, whether it’s a team or an individual.

John McKay (00:11:25):

Well, um, I, I’m still stuck on something you said, so I’d like to go back there if I can. Sure. Uh, uh, and, and, and we all, and, uh, I just wanna point to something that we all do when we go into a situation or when we’re traveled or anxious, we’ll move in a certain way. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and we’ll move towards it against it, or, uh, away from it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and as we’re moving, we create a story and we create our own narrative. And when we go into a difficult situation with our own narrative at play, uh, it’s very hard to understand what is really going on. And it’s really hard to create what I call the ability to hold space, or be fully present with your counterparty, because you’ve got something going on. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and so coaching is about helping us put the narrative away.

John McKay (00:12:20):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and to be open and to be able to work with what’s with what this is back to emergence mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so if you think of organizations and who we are in, in, in organizations, a team is made up of individuals mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and in every organization, the further up you go in the organization, uh, the individuals that are on, on the most senior leadership team could be, we could, we could, we could characterize ’em as all being thoroughbreds mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, because they’ve, they run a good race. They have gotten to where they are by using their superpowers. And they exercise those superpowers every day to hold them in the leadership position they’re in, but on the team and thoroughbreds aren’t trained to run together. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, uh, very much team coaching is helping the thoroughbreds continue to be a thoroughbred, but helping the thoroughbreds learn to pull together, run together and be together, and then come back to safety. And then to have the conversations with each other that are meaningful, impactful, and pertinent, and in a way that that creates alignment and the ability to hold alignment going forward.

Mary Morand (00:13:30):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. And that, that a, that alignment, isn’t something that you achieve, and then you’re done mm-hmm <affirmative> right. It’s like any relationship it’s anything that is, that is going on. Um, you’re constantly working to be in alignment, right? Your car gets out of alignment when you hit the curb and, and, and otherwise, um, when you’re driving on the road, you’re not 10 and two, you’re constantly making adjustments. And so as the business changes, as the dynamics within the team may shift or change, maybe a new person comes in, somebody access, you get a new leader. Um, there’s a reorg. Um, people are coming together in different ways. Uh, all of a sudden something like maybe a pandemic hits now, what do we do? Right. There’s always something that’s gonna shift and change in the broadest sense of the world in the industry, in the company, in the department, in the team.

Mary Morand (00:14:23):

And so working with that is always an opportunity for the team to realign and to continue to achieve what it is that they need to achieve together. Um, and stuff always goes bump in the night. So there there’s lots of opportunity to, to work with the team because there’s an event, right, because of something that shifts or changes, but also working with the team to just help them get better over time together. And when they can be really effective together, what happens actually, John and I kind of move off stages as we like to say. Um, in the beginning we can work with them really intensely, um, with inten many intentions. And over time they learn how to do this on their own. They, they begin to notice things that they didn’t notice before. Somebody can raise a hand and say, oh, wait, we’re doing that thing again, that we always do.

Mary Morand (00:15:13):

Let’s not go down that bunny trail, right. Or, or we’re spinning again, this is our, this is what we do when we spin and we can’t get to a decision. So, um, let’s call that and then do some do, do what we know to do to get ourselves out of that. So, um, there, there’s never a situation that working with a team can’t help a team improve, right? So even in sport, mm-hmm, <affirmative> people come together, the team gets better throughout the season, but at no point along the way, do we say, okay, we don’t need any more coaching. Um, so we like to get people to a place where they collectively configure things out on their own, and then they can continue to go and experiment and, and get better themselves. So,

Billy Taylor (00:15:53):

You know, Mary, one of the things that I, I, I, I experience now in, in my line of work, uh, right, we’re a business operating system, architects, and we go into companies and we help build our operating system. And what we find in, in, in almost 90 plus percent of the, the, the cases, the, the people closest to the source are not the problem. The leaders are the problem. And the leaders know enough to know when they’re right, but they don’t know enough to know when they’re wrong. And so what I mean by that is egos kick in and, and they, they ignore the need for a coach. And, and, and, uh, one of the challenges that I face now is getting those leaders to, to recognize the fact that they need a coach to recognize the, the fact that both individually and collectively, they need to bring someone outside of their circle to help them see more clearly.

Billy Taylor (00:16:53):

And they would expedite, right, the efficiency, they will expedite. They will expedite the results. How, how, how do you get help teams and leaders realize that they need a coach because that’s important because for me, you gotta think I’m, I’m close to 30 years in John and you come and introduce a new way of, um, navigate my own personal career. And I’m gonna say this, you know, psychological safety. And one of the things that I realized psychological safety is just as damaging or harmful as physical safety people, don’t engage with you and John, when we are talking, you know, I could come in and sometimes I could be an opposing figure when I’m having a conversation. And when I did that, it was unsafe, right. It was unsafe for the person on the other side of the table. And you know what, I probably developed that from being in a, in a position of command and control rather than being in a position of influence. And so when I went in that meeting, I had to operate from a position of influence. I needed a coach.

John McKay (00:18:03):

Yeah. And, and, and, and well said, Billy and unsafe for others and also unsafe for yourself. That’s right. Because when you’re operating in, in that modality of, of pushing and, and, and creating a, um, what I’ll describe as a, a potentially fractured environment, um, you can’t be your real self. You can’t be authentic. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And coaching is about helping leaders bring their authentic self forward. So everybody that, that, that is working with the leader, who is their authentic self, gets something real, and it’s tangible. You can feel it, you can smell it, you can taste it. It’s in the room. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, and, and coaching helps leaders and individuals come to their authenticity. And, you know, you talk about psych psychological safety. Uh, every time you turn around now, you hear psychological safety. It, it mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it’s become a, it’s become a banner, but what is it really?

John McKay (00:19:00):

Um, you know, we believe it in our coaching stance, which is how we, we believe people are, is that people need to be held in their dignity, that he need to have a sense of belonging, and they need to feel safe. Uh, and if people, if it, it doesn’t matter who you are in the face of the earth, mm-hmm, <affirmative> any one of us today walking on the face of the earth are looking for those three things. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So, if so, if we, as leaders can hold the dignity of those that we’re working with, if we can keep them safe. In other words, I’m with you, I hear you I’m fully present with you. I’m not, I’m not multitasking, and I’m gonna sit with you until I hear everything you have to say, mm-hmm <affirmative> and I’m gonna let you know I heard it. Yes. And, and then you can connect with that in terms of creating a sense of belonging that we are in this together, and that’s that’s leaders being able to be comfortable with their own vulnerability. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, I mean, I, I, I, I find it quite interesting when I would talk to a, a CEO about going to a potential new opportunity, and I would say, well, uh, what didn’t work

John McKay (00:20:05):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> where did you fail in your, in your, in your, in your last mandate mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I always found it quite refreshing to have a leader and say, well, let me tell you how I failed. And they could openly have that conversation. Well, that, that created a whole new, a whole new pathway of discovery on who this individual is and what they’re all about. And it’s the same thing in between coaching, if we can be vulnerable. And if we can expose our vulnerability and use it in an additive way to help folks understand who we are, then we can be our more authentic, and we’re not wearing a mask.

Mary Morand (00:20:37):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. I wanna, I wanna add to that, because when, when I was listening to you talk, John thinking about some of the teams that we work with and, and, and, and it, this whole word vulnerable is a little scary to some people. And it’s really just about being vulnerable enough to create a little bit of a shift, share a little bit of something, step back, and notice a pattern, right. Um, say, be, be safe in the sense that you can put it out there and know that there are people around you who got you, right. They’re gonna work together to understand what’s at play and all of us will get better as a result of that. So it doesn’t, it doesn’t take a lot. It just is breaking up the pattern and the teams are operating with some really defined patterns. And when we see that our job as coach isn’t to say, here’s the pattern you need to have, or here’s how you need to do this.

Mary Morand (00:21:34):

It’s just to call it out and recognize what’s happening in the room, in the zoom room, or the teams room, or the real room and say, Hey, what what’s happening right now? Let’s all fly up about 10,000 feet and notice what’s going on. Um, and then decide, do we want that? Or do we not want that? Do we wanna change that in some way? And so, you know, a lot of what we do is bring in that different perspective. Chad will go back to your book from the beginning, right. It’s having a different perspective and outsiders come in and have that different perspective. And we work with a team to help them find what their secret sauce is in terms of how they leverage the different perspectives in the room.

John McKay (00:22:17):

Yeah. And, and it’s interesting, Billy, you would know this from your experience, um, that, um, you’re working with your team and there’s always a quiet voice. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, there’s, there’s that one person on the team who just doesn’t ever say anything mm-hmm <affirmative>, but you know, they’ve got something and you really wish it would come forward, but there’s other voices in the room and there’s power in the room and, and this voice always stays quiet. And so what’s, what’s really, what’s really fun in team coaching is that the, as the team’s turning the corner and beginning to actually surface the work to be done, having the conversation with itself about the work to be what’s important here, what do we wanna work on when that quiet voice begins to emerge it, that quiet voice will only emerge. If that quiet voice feels comfortable enough to say what they need to say and know that they’re going to be heard. So this is, this is when you know, the team is moving to an atmosphere of safety. And that’s when the quiet voice sees the team going in circle says, you know, I’d like to make an observation. We’re going in circles again, what do we want to do about that? And the CEO and the louder voices that have always been in the room go, yeah, you’re right. Let’s work with that. And now all of a sudden you get connection and you begin to move again.

Billy Taylor (00:23:27):

You know, once, once a team goes through this process or an individual, right. And, and again, I’ll go back to my personal experience. Um, what does success look like? Right. So once you went through this journey of, of, of getting a coach going through a process of being coached, what does success look like? So if, if I’m looking at a company and I reach out to, to, to, to, to me MCCA coaching, and I says, I wanna bring you in. I wanna bring you in. I need you, because I know several companies that need you right now. I, if they won’t, you, there’s a difference between want and need, right. I want a Bentley, I need a ride to work. Right. So one’s solely different. So when I’m looking at, at what you,

John McKay (00:24:11):

Well, what color Bentley do you want, Billy? <laugh>

Billy Taylor (00:24:14):

It could even be, it could be pink, yellow, green, whatever. It is. Just gimme a Bentley. I’ll pick it up once I get it. So when, when you look at that, what does success look like? It’s like general actually think about the answer to that question, right. When I said, I need, you said what color? And I’m saying, it doesn’t matter. Just get me a Bentley. Right. I know what I want. Right. But I need a ride to work. So I know several companies that need your, you and, and Mary, but what does success look like? What does winning look like? Uh, in coaching,

John McKay (00:24:50):

You wanna start that,

Mary Morand (00:24:51):

Um, I’ll there there’s, there are many answers to the question, but in some ways, Billy, it’s the answer to the question is the same question again. So the question you’re asking us, what does success look like is a question that we ask the, the people being coached, right? Say what, what needs to change? If, if we’re successful together, what’s different at the end. Um, and people express that in a number of different ways, it might be about the dynamics within the team. It’s often about here’s the business problem I need to solve. Um, we gotta find a new way something’s changing in our world. And we have to have people now operate in a way that they’re not used to. We want to eliminate some of the bureaucracy. And as we do that, we need to work with, um, leaders to operate in a different way, uh, in terms of how they lead people.

Mary Morand (00:25:41):

So there, there are many, many things out there that, that are going to be different. And one of the things that John and I, um, really kind of pride ourselves in, I think is that we, we look at each situation in a really bespoke way, in a, in a really unique way. We recognize that, you know, we know a lot about teams, but we will never know, um, everything that we need to know about your team. You guys are the experts on your business. You know, your, your situation. If I’m working one to one with the leader, you know, you and you know, your company. And so we, again come alongside to help you achieve that, which you, you, you say you, you need to change or you need to, to make happen. Um, so success is different and we let the, the client define it. John, you probably have, have more to, to say,

John McKay (00:26:30):

Yeah, well, well, let’s pick up a real live example. Uh, we had a conversation yesterday with a leader. Uh, we’ve been asked to come in to, to work with this leader and his team he’s got about seven or eight direct reports. And then there’s another group underneath another 12 mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, um, then there’s a, a broader group and, you know, the whole, the whole collective’s about 31, but we’re working with the leader and his directs primarily. And we, uh, we introduced to this gentleman, we didn’t know him. We spent an hour and a half with him yesterday on zoom. And the question we ask is, you know, if we’re going to work together for the next six to nine months, what does success look like for you? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And he said, so he, so I’ll break it down. He said, here’s my pain point.

John McKay (00:27:20):

And my pain point is that we’re in a shifting economy, we’re in a shifting industry. Uh, we are moving to alternative ways of doing things. We’re hier. We are a hierarchical global company and, and we are very top down. We have, um, strained resources. We’re competing for capital internally, as well as market externally. Um, there are any number of factors that are at play here. And so we have to rethink about how we do our business to be able to do more with less, and to do that. We have to change the way we work as a leadership team. So we can get everybody on board to move towards the same end result in the same way. Can you help? Yeah, but what he said was success for him was we’ve got to be able to do things differently and we, and we need to do it as a team.

Mary Morand (00:28:16):

So what’s cool about that is, as you were recounting, John, you, you can just listen like what organization isn’t stretched for resources who doesn’t need to shift as there and what industry isn’t shifting and changing at some level. But as we were talking with him and in the end, what was great about it is we said, great, we’re gonna figure this out together. Like, I don’t know what the answer is. That’s a whole lot of stuff you put out there. What’s, what’s first, what’s the most, you know, important. What is it that requires other stakeholders within the organization that have to support you? So all we’ve begun to do is just surface what’s possible. And then together with the, uh, with the leader, one to one, as well as with his team, we’ll figure out, okay, how, how are you gonna get through this? But it’s something where we work together with the clients, including a one to one client we work together to, to, to figure out what, what that is, cuz those strategies that, that we come forward with, they have to work inside the company. They have to work for that team or that leader, you know, or it’s no good. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that’s, that’s a practical side of this. We, we, we do no, no, no, no. Um, what we don’t wanna do harm by saying here’s the prescriptive thing. Right? We create it together.

John McKay (00:29:36):

Absolutely. Yeah. And just to build on a little bit more, if I may, is that, um,

John McKay (00:29:45):

Our approach with, with, with working with leaders and their teams is to have conversations with the team mm-hmm <affirmative>. So our first step is to have a conversation with each team member mm-hmm <affirmative> who are you? What is your connection with this team? Mm-hmm <affirmative> if, if this team’s going to be successful for you, what do you need mm-hmm <affirmative> and what do you think the team needs from you to be successful? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and if the team were to focus and do the work that, that the team needs to do, what do you think that is? What would that look like? So we collect all that data and bring it back to the leader in themes and say, here’s what your team is saying. And once he understands what the team is saying, then we bring that to the leader and the team together and say, here’s the data. Here are the themes. What’s the work you’d like to do. What’s important to you. And then we allow the team to move into conversation with itself. Mm-hmm <affirmative> to begin to identify the work that they wanna do. And that’s how we build our contracts to success going forward. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because it’s the team defining what success is. It’s the team contracting for the work that they wanna do together. And it’s the coaches holding the team in alignment and practice over time to move to where they need to get to.

Mary Morand (00:30:56):

Now. Now here’s a funny thing about that. And then I’ll, then I’ll, I’ll be quiet because we could, we could go back

Billy Taylor (00:31:01):

And ahead good

Mary Morand (00:31:03):

Hours. But, but when we go out and we talk to people, we even come back to the team and we say, that’s the last time we’re gonna do that. Right? Because, because we’re gonna go and help us get started and have those conversations. But guess what you guys and gals need to be talking together, um, is not us going out and getting the information and bringing it back. That’s there’s something wrong in the system right there. Right. So, so how do we, how do we engage with the team so that they begin doing this themselves, not only within the team, but also do the other people in the organization that they need to be connected with.

Billy Taylor (00:31:35):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

John McKay (00:31:36):

Yeah. And so let’s speak to connections, safety, dignity, and belonging. Mm-hmm <affirmative> a team is a team is operating within a system. That system is the organizational structure, an organization. I mean, you came outta Goodyear, that’s a global company. Absolutely. But that global company operates in a system beyond its own walls. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so every team, every organization has a series of stakeholders. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and teams need to connect. What’s disconnected with their stakeholders. You’ve gotta bring the stakeholders, voices into the room. So the team can hear what is the stakeholders need from the team. So the team can then connect what’s disconnected within the team mm-hmm to then connect with the stakeholders.

Billy Taylor (00:32:20):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> I, I like that because when, when you look at, I call it extreme ownership.

John McKay (00:32:26):

Mm yeah,

Billy Taylor (00:32:27):

For sure. Right. And, and it’s extreme ownership at every level of the organization, you know, but one of the things I see too, John now is, uh, when I look at these teams or these, these companies that I work with, these leadership, these leaders get promoted, right. And some of ’em are promoted too fast. They’re they’re talented, but you know, there, there there’s right. The, the cake has to be in the oven, 30 minutes, 350 degrees. Right now, if you, if you change something, you just can’t say, cut it up, you know, 400 degrees for 15 minutes. There’s some things that have to take place. And those leaders that are put in those situations, especially young leaders coming up, uh, there were some times in my career that I had to be developed, right. That took time. And there was some coaching that had to take place, coaching and mentorship.

Billy Taylor (00:33:16):

What I see today in companies I work with are these leaders that have significant gaps around, how do you hold people to a standard? How do you show up? Uh, you know, as a and I was asked here recently, believe what was one, what was one of the, the gaps, give me a gap in your, your growth. And I said, well, I, I was promoted. I, I skipped level, I two levels up. And my problem was the people that I were leading, I was leading were also the people that hired me, the people that trained me. And so when we, when I first started holding my meetings, they would come up late. They came into meeting late. Right. They also kinda, um, they didn’t engage the way they were engaging with my predecessor. And so I tried to be cute or whatever, or finicky or gimmicky, whatever you wanna call it.

Billy Taylor (00:34:09):

I says, well, if you’re late, put a quarter in the cup, okay. That was my way of saying it’s unacceptable to be late. And I remember calling my mom and she says, did you establish the standard? Yes. Did you communicate the standard? Yes. Then whatever you accept becomes a standard, regardless of what you wrote down, whatever you accept is the standard. And what you’d also say is what you accept. You cannot change. If I’m in a, in a relationship that’s abusive and I’ve accept it, it’s never gonna change. And so as a leader, that was something that at that time, my mother was a coach. And, and, and, and, and I’m not saying this was successful. It worked for me at that time. She says at, at nine o’clock when the meeting starts lock the door, just lock the door and don’t open it. The meetings starting at, at, at, at, at, at nine. And you know what, the difference between a fact and an excuse is timing. Don’t call me after meeting and tell me why you’re gonna be late. Call me before the meeting and tell me why you’re gonna be late. And so at that point, that was a lesson that I learned early on in my career about setting standards, holding people to the standard. Um, now what I see now is those leaders don’t have the, that coaching and they wing it. Yeah. We, and when they wing it, they destroy the team. We,

Mary Morand (00:35:33):

We have some conversations, one to one with leaders. I, I, I honestly think in the one to one work that we do, even the first level of accountability, that that’s, that’s the hardest thing, um, for people to do. And, and it doesn’t matter how big your business is or what your fancy title may be holding people to account is tough. It’s hard. It creates, um, you know, it has all the potentials for creating that unsafe conversation. Like, oh, I gotta go do this. And, um, and, and the reality is the more you practice that, and the more you find your unique, unique way of doing it, like, I love your mom’s, uh, wisdom that that was, so that was so hurt. Right? That’s exactly, uh, what worked our job as coach is to say, what’s gonna work for you. And what’s the pain that you’re experiencing, because you are holding people accountable.

Mary Morand (00:36:26):

Like we’ve established that, but now what are you gonna do? What are you gonna go try? They go, they try something didn’t work. Well, you just haven’t found it yet. So we’ll try again. So mm-hmm <affirmative> so that accountability piece plays out, um, not only for all levels of leadership, but also within the team. And ultimately when we’re working with the team, uh, the team members hold each other accountable, uh, and that’s, that’s the highest, I think that’s a pinnacle when team members can hold themselves accountable for their agreements and what they say they’re going to do.

John McKay (00:36:58):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. It’s interesting. Mary, uh, and Billy, we, uh, uh, we have a lot of time for, uh, folks at the team coaching studio where we’re on the faculty, um, and we’re, we’re bringing their, um, their team coaching certification program into north America with our first program in, in may, middle of may in Phoenix. And this is for coaches to come in and tip their, put their foot into the, into the water team coaching, what is it mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and, and have them experience it and, and try their hand at it. And it’s also a great place for, for leaders to come in who want to develop a coaching stance mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and create a bit of a different approach to their, how they operate with their team. But one of the things that, that, that that’s come out of our, um, our time with geo Woodfield at the team coaching studio is, uh, the concept of ABC always be contracted.

John McKay (00:37:50):

Uh, and we think we can, we think we can establish a, a relationship and a contract with our team on the front end, as a leader and say, this is the work we’re gonna do. And, and this is what we’re all about and walk away from that contract mm-hmm <affirmative>, but people, events, situations, dynamics all have an impact on how the team is traveling down the road that it’s traveling down. And you always have to be in a position to recontract with what is the work that we’re going to do together. Cause the theory is what, what, what we do together that we can’t do apart mm-hmm, <affirmative> let’s contract to do that work together. But as we’re doing that work together, let’s notice and understand what’s shifting and changing and let’s recontract about how we do it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So for, for the person who’s parental late for the meeting, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s having the comfort either as the leader or somebody else on the team say, can I have a conversation?

John McKay (00:38:41):

Sure. Uh, I’m noticing that you’re always 10 to 15 minutes late for our meetings. I’m wondering what what’s behind that. What can we do to help you to be here on time? What do you need from us? It’s a, it’s a, it’s a different kind of conversation. Absolutely. And, and so help us understand so we can help you be here with us, cuz we need you in this room with us. Mm-hmm <affirmative> what can we do together? But, but then you now you’re contract and the person says, well, I really, I, you know, I need that extra 15 minutes. Could we start the meeting 15 minutes late? Okay. Let’s have that conversation with the team mm-hmm <affirmative> but then it’s, if we’re going to shift and move with you to what we’ve agreed to do, how do you want us to hold you accountable to this now?

Billy Taylor (00:39:20):

Mm-hmm

John McKay (00:39:21):

<affirmative>, it’s the conversation that is that that has to be had on an ongoing basis that often doesn’t ever show up.

Mary Morand (00:39:28):

And you know, John mm-hmm

John McKay (00:39:29):

<affirmative> and that’s

Mary Morand (00:39:30):

Sorry, what you, what you said is a key word in there. I wanna call out is agreement. And so often, right. We as individuals operate in our, in our agreement, like this is what I think is going on and what needs to happen and how it should be. But often we haven’t actually had the out loud, out loud conversations with the other people or the other person. And so in coaching we often can ask. And, and how, how, what was it like when you were establishing the agreement around this

Billy Taylor (00:40:03):

Silence? Mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, maybe one of the things that I like about what you just said, right? The out loud conversation, the out loud, you know, one of the things that I talk about in my book is you can’t manage a secret. Yeah.

Billy Taylor (00:40:18):

Right. And, and, and, and often, uh, businesses fail because their strategies are secret. Their expectations are secrets, right? How do they, the rules of the relationship, right. That that’s important. Where, how do we engage now? Those are not concrete. They’re not monuments, right. Those change, but they’re guidelines. And, and, and so, uh, again, leaders need that kind of coaching, especially in today’s time, because now our work environment’s even changing. Uh, it’s more fluid today, uh, after COVID right. It’s more influential than it is commanding now, right? From if I’m not with you face to face all the time that command and control is not as effective as influence and influence is effective. When you, when there’s clarity, deliberate, clarity, clear clarity around expectations around, you know, John getting the understanding right. Meeting face to face. And so, and, and, and that’s where it could get messy. Right. Coaching can get messy, uh, when people think they’re coaches cause right. They don’t know how, um, tell me about that. I’ve heard team coaching can be messy. What’s that about?

Mary Morand (00:41:31):

It’s more than it’s more than messy. Go ahead.

John McKay (00:41:35):

<laugh> where to start Billy <laugh> uh, uh, me just think about this for a second. What makes it messy? Uh, I think messy is a word that you can have fun with more so than get concerned about mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and it’s messy because you, you, you go back to your days at Goodyear. Um, you call the team, or even in your practice today, when you’re working with your, with your client organizations and you invite the team members to come in, there’s the leader and all the team members come into the room. Mm-hmm <affirmative> every team member walks into the meeting with whatever they’re carrying mm-hmm, <affirmative> on their shoulders. What’s happening in their life. What’s happening at work. What’s happening with themselves. What’s happening with their boss. Everybody shows up in the room with their own package of stuff. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and as the team comes together, let’s say you have a team of eight.

John McKay (00:42:35):

Well, eight to the exponential of eight is how many relationships are at play in the room. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So how do you get the team focused on purpose? What are we here for? What’s the outcome we’re looking for? You know, how do we get the team to, to come to a common voice of understanding and the ability to collaborate and work in, in, in a blending way versus a chafing way. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so it’s messy in a sense that there are so many dynamics at play there’s individuals, there’s power, there’s organizational issues. There’s just all of these different factors floating around in the room that you could think of. Uh, and it’s, it’s helping the team make sense of all of this

Mary Morand (00:43:19):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And to do that, we just have, we have to say, yes, we say yes to the mess. Right. And as we’re think, as we’re thinking about, even in the middle of working with a client, one to one again, or team, we sometimes get to this place where we say, wow, there’s, there’s a, there’s a lot of stuff. Um, and I feel is confused as the client. And so what are we, what are we gonna do with this? And, and the only way, way, way through it is, is through it. So we say yes to the mess,

John McKay (00:43:52):

Right? Yeah. And, and so that comes back to the concept of working with what’s emerging mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, as a coach, um, one of the, one of the biggest traps as a, as a, as, as a one-to-one coach or a team coach, is to fall into your history, into your paradigms. And to think that you’ve got the answer for the team, because if you fall into and begin to participate in the team’s story or the client’s story, then you’ve now, you’ve now, um, co-opted and created a situation where you cannot be as, as, as clear minded as you need to be, to help them get to where they want to get to mm-hmm <affirmative>. So when we’re working with a team and we have one team in particular, um, uh, that just has a, a well established pattern of getting into circular conversations. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, and, and they do it with the greatest amount of meaning and support for one another, but it, it obscures their ability to get the decision that they wanna make. We know this about this team. Uh, we could warn the team at the beginning of a session to say, now you guys get into circular conversations and don’t do that. Uh, but we don’t. We allow the team to begin to do what the team needs to do, but over time, this pattern may emerge. And when this pattern emerges, what we do is team coaches to say, I, you know, I’d like to make an observation. Hmm. I’m feeling a little anxious and frustrated because I think we’re going in circles. What are you all noticing?

Mary Morand (00:45:33):

Or sometimes time, we don’t even have to say anything. We just, they look at us, they’ll catch a glance. And, and, and there’ll be this, this moment. And somebody goes, uhoh right. And, and it’s in that. And, and within that practice, it’s, they, they begin to catch themselves in the act, catch themselves doing both good things and things that are, you know, part of their pattern when they are able to do that, then fabulous. They’re able to shift and change it.

John McKay (00:46:03):

It’s a win. Yeah. It’s a win. And I think, and I think Billy, this comes back to who you are as a leader and how you’ve always operated with folks and that’s to, to, to bring the best of yourself to those that, that, that you’re spending time with. And what, what we do with the leaders of the teams is particularly, uh, we have, we’re working with one CEO and we’ve said to a point blank, we want you to onboard coaching, uh, behaviors in meetings with us. We want you to come alongside of us. And we want you to do what we do as we’re modeling how to coach. We want you to begin to model with us. We want to transfer this to you. Right. So, because we’re quite clear, I mean, it, mm-hmm, <affirmative> we like to work with teams over an extended period of time, period of time to help the teams onboard the behaviors and the patterns that will make them even better.

John McKay (00:46:58):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> and just like a sports team, the coaches are there to get the very best out of the athletes on a daily basis. Yes. And to get them to build a muscle memory, to do this, mm-hmm, <affirmative> poor performing teams have bad muscle memory. We’ve gotta move them to new muscle memory and embed it. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it’s also to believe behind, um, a, a, an, a sense of knowledge, a platform of what coaching is. So the team can actually coach itself. And the leader in particular is comfortable enough to be a coach versus a leader mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I use my finger for, for a specific point. Let me tell you what we’re gonna do versus what would you like to do? What do you think is best for us? How do we want to approach, how do we do it together? What are our stakeholders looking for? Mm-hmm <affirmative> so coaching is helping leaders and teams ask the first question, then ask the second question and then ask the third question and go deeper to understand what needs to be done.

Billy Taylor (00:48:00):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So would you say to him, and as I’m I’m I’m I I’m thinking, and you’re talking, I’m thinking, and I’m a big fan of leadership. Right. And so people get, uh, the mistake that I love sports, although I do like sports, uh, but most leaders are showcased through sporting events when we see in media. And so when you were talking, I’m thinking Nick Saban, head coach of the university of Alabama, uh, football team, right. Uh, bill Belichick, head coach of right. The, um, um, the new England Patriots. Would you say that everyone needs a coach at some point, right. Do you ever get to the point where you’re so good, you’re at the top of the throne where you don’t need a coach? Cuz I keep hearing you say I coach CEOs and I do. Right. And so those are at the top of the heat, but I wanna hear it from you and, and Mary Mary do do, do, does everyone need a coach?

Mary Morand (00:48:53):

Well, of, of course cancer is yes. <laugh>,

John McKay (00:49:00):

Wouldn’t be very selfer we said something else. Were it Billy <laugh>?

Mary Morand (00:49:05):

Uh, for sure, for sure.

Mary Morand (00:49:08):

But those different, if you think about coaching as an, a forever strategy for your own wellbeing development, your own success. So how you use that coach when you use that coach, when you’re most in need. Um, you know, it’s not the same thing all the time, over time, but there are moments in our lives, in our professional lives, our personal lives where someone acting as coach can absolutely help you move through what you’re moving through. And so to that answer, yes, everyone, everyone needs a coach and I’ll tell you, John and I both have coaches and we have people who work with us in a supervisory capacity because the work is hard. Um, there’s a lot going on. There’s a lot to, uh, hold on to and we have coaches that help us, um, make sense of all of that so that we can be as effective as we can with, with our clients. So yes. And, and heck yeah, everybody needs a coach.

John McKay (00:50:08):

All right. Well, well and, and, and just to a, add some more, uh, around this, um, all of us, uh, the most senior executive, an organization to the most junior person in an organization needs and should have somebody that they can go have a quiet, conf confidential conversation with, to say what they need to say in a, in a, in a very safe, supportive and understanding environment. And if we have the ability to have that outlet, it helps us be better at who we are,

Billy Taylor (00:50:45):

You know, last but not least. And then, uh, we’ll wrap up on this question, um, when shouldn’t okay. When wouldn’t you recommend a team coaching, when would you not recommend a team coaching?

John McKay (00:50:59):

Well, the simple answer is when they’re not ready for it

Mary Morand (00:51:02):

And part of not ready is, um, they’re close to it. They’re not, they’re not interested. Um, maybe the pain isn’t great enough, there’s still a desire and a will and there there’s valid effort going on. Um, and they, they wanna do it on their own. Um, so, so really a, a readiness I would say is, is having to be, you have to have that present if somebody’s not ready. I mean, it’s, it’s no different than in our regular relationships. You know, our spouses, our friends, they can tell us anything that they like, we can vent to them. We can have that place to go for a quiet conversation. But, but if we’re not interested in changing anything about how we think or how we go about doing something, approaching something, um, then we’re not, we’re not ready for coaching cuz we’re not ready for change.

John McKay (00:51:57):

Yeah. And, and, and just, I know we’re time, Billy, but you know, we we’ve had, we’ve had leaders come to us and say, I want you to coach my team. And the first question we ask is, are you gonna be part of this? Mm-hmm <affirmative> no, I just want you to take care of my team. I need, I need you to fix my team. And our response is no, because you are a team member. If you’re going to, if we’re going to coach the team, the leaders with the team in the work to be done as a team member,

Billy Taylor (00:52:26):

You know, I agree with you. I didn’t mean to cut you, but I, I have to jump in here and one of our models or principles, if you call it, we do change with the team, not to the team.

John McKay (00:52:36):

Right?

Billy Taylor (00:52:37):

So that means everybody has to be, uh, engaged, you know, and one of my reaches and clients I’m in the room and I, I, I start every session out. Well, do you understand why I’m in the room, what we’re doing and do you understand let’s, let’s talk about the why before we get into the, what mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and the leader I’ve, I’ve had leaders that 90, again, 90 plus percent. I’ve done this before, or I’ve, I’ve read the book before and I just listened. And recently I said, you don’t want me in the room and I don’t want to be here. I said, I’m gonna ask you about three questions. Uh, as I grab my coat and pack my backpack up. Okay. And, and when I ask the questions, you know, about show me your strategy. If you’re the head of this organization is just, and, and the team answers, we don’t have a strategy.

Billy Taylor (00:53:28):

So then the second question is, does the team understand and know your strategy? If that answers? No. Again, I don’t even need to answer the third question because you know what? The strategy is a secret and the leader’s been doing it to the team, not with the team. And by then I go to grab my backpack by then that leader’s blocking the door. You’re not leaving. You’re not going anywhere. Right. We need, we need not. We want you here. And the leader realizes that the, the issue at hand was the leader themselves. And so that coaching I started with in these particular cases, or with the leader, as we start to peel the onion back through coaching, you see all the opportunities. I didn’t say all the problems. We see all, all that. And John that’s kinda where we were you when I was going through it, right.

Billy Taylor (00:54:17):

It, it was, I call it a mirror exercise. I was able to reflect. And my funniest moment, John would say, well, then how are you gonna go in the meeting? And what are you going to say? And I, you know, at first he started out really safe with me until we got to know each other. He coached me alone. And he very transparent. He’d say what I’m hearing you say, and he’d repeat it back to me. And then as we got further in the process, he said, tell me what you’re gonna say. And I said, and he says, you’re saying too much, you, you, you, you’re going outside of this circle or the scope of clarity, right? You’re introducing your emotions.

John McKay (00:54:56):

Well, and, and what, and this was me making an observation. And if I, if I can share Billy, sure, please. This is, is that you, your pattern was to use words, to allow yourself time to think. Absolutely. As, and you lost, you obscured the clarity of the message you wanted to deliver while you were putting this plethora of words out, which kept you safe until you were ready to say what you wanted to say.

Billy Taylor (00:55:20):

Absolutely. A hundred percent. And, and John from now, what do I use when I go into clients that exact same approach, right? And so, no, this has been outstanding. And, and, and, and, and I’m sure that the audience wants to know how they can get in contact with you, how they can further these discussions and learning, and maybe opportunities for coaching. So how do people get in contact with both of you personally, and as a business? And I mean, maybe it’s social media, maybe it’s websites, maybe it’s, and I I’ll turn it over to, to you. Uh, Mary and John, how do they, how do people connect with each,

Mary Morand (00:55:54):

You know what? We try to make it as easy as we could. It’s Miranda mckay.com. And, um, it’s Mary Moran McKay is my email. John’s email is John at Miranda McKay we’re on LinkedIn. Um, so yeah, it it’ll take about three seconds to go find us and we look forward to it. We’d love to have some conversations with people.

John McKay (00:56:20):

Yeah. And I, I, I wanna leave on one thought is we didn’t touch on it, but mm-hmm, <affirmative> teams are at their agile best if they’re clear about what their purpose is.

Billy Taylor (00:56:32):

Mm.

John McKay (00:56:33):

And if, if teams can be very clear to purpose and understand how to hold themselves in alignment to purpose, they will be even better. If

Mary Morand (00:56:42):

Yeah. And what I, I, I’m sorry, I gotta add to that. Right. So, so, so purpose, uh, don’t think big purpose, you know, we’ve gotta craft it, put it on a plaque, right. But just simply, what are we here to do together? What is it that is unique that this team, or what is it that is unique that I, the leader can do. And when we have that kind of clarity, we can back out of that and, and help help people find the path.

Billy Taylor (00:57:12):

Oh, that’s outstanding. You know, and I, I guess I, I swell up when I hear that, because one of the first things we do is with a team is UN develop your purpose statement. That’s the, before we start doing anything around, what, what, what, what, what your issues are, do you really know your purpose? Do you know your why? Yeah. Right. Do you know that’s important

John McKay (00:57:35):

And what do you notice when you get the information?

Billy Taylor (00:57:39):

Yeah. And, and once we look at you, now, you can understand for me, we understand your current reality and then your target, what’s your target condition. And now we can really talk about those gaps. We can talk about those things. You need to close the gaps, but a lot of people are in denial. They’re not into. And I call ’em KPIs, KPIs. You know, if I wanna lose weight, standing on a scale is the KPI. That’s the end game. <laugh> the KPIs. If I eat right. If I sleep in, I exercise, I have a high probability of losing that weight, but I’m in denial about those three things. Right. And, and so leaders have to be, um, I’m again, self-conscious the organization’s self-conscious and sometimes you need another set of eyes to get you there. You know, like, like, you know, my, my, and I’m gonna use my situation again. Right. My natural leadership style, John was to be verbose until I felt comfortable to put those things out there and I didn’t need to be, I didn’t need to be verbose. And now I notice when others are doing it, and I know how to stop that. Right. Let’s get to, let’s get to the real issue.

Billy Taylor (00:58:55):

So that’s great. Well, thank you. And I’m gonna ask that actually, you, I’m gonna ask to invite you back on another podcast down the road, because I think this topic is right into, right in line with what we talk about, about winning, right? When you think of the title of my book is called the winning link. And when, when teams win, right, they all have a coach. <laugh>, I’ve never seen a team win without a coach. And so,

John McKay (00:59:22):

Well, the Los Angeles Rams, after winning the super bowl, didn’t fire their coach.

Billy Taylor (00:59:27):

That’s right. <laugh> there you go. But the Lakers did <laugh>.

John McKay (00:59:35):

There you go.

Billy Taylor (00:59:36):

So with Adams signing off, remember my favorite quote in life is make people visible and they’ll make you valuable. I think that’s important. People want to be recognized and appreciated. And so on that note, we’ll see the next time on the winning link. Uh, and we look forward to connecting with you and please reach out to, uh, my guest today, Mary and John. And thank you for being an outstanding guest. Have a great day. Thank

John McKay (01:00:03):

You. Thanks, Billy. Always fun.

Billy Taylor (01:00:05):

Thank you. Thank you for listening to the winning link. Please go to our website for links to everything that was mentioned in today’s episode, please subscribe to the winning link to be notified of our latest news events and updates. We welcome you to the link team.