When they said “shoot for the stars,” Susan Kilrain took it literally. As one of only three women to pilot a space shuttle, she has broken barriers and opened doors in countless ways. In this Logistics with Purpose crossover episode, and in honor of the recent historical events in India, Kristi and Maureen sit down with Susan to learn about her professional trajectory from the Navy to space and on into motivational speaking, advisory boards, motherhood and more. Find out what it’s like to stare down at Earth for the first time, plus get Susan’s advice for young dreamers and their parents.

Intro/Outro (00:02):

Welcome to Logistics with Purpose presented by Vector Global Logistics in partnership with Supply chain. Now we spotlight and celebrate organizations who are dedicated to creating a positive impact. Join us for this behind the scenes glimpse of the origin stories change, making progress and future plans of organizations who are actively making a difference. Our goal isn’t just to entertain you, but to inspire you to go out and change the world. And now here’s today’s episode of Logistics With Purpose.

Kristi Porter (00:34):

Hi, and welcome to another episode of Logistics with Purpose. Um, I’m your host today, Christie Porter of Vector Global Logistics Chief Marketing Officer, and I am delighted to have our director of special projects with us today. Also, Maureen wla. How are you, Maureen?

Maureen Woolshlager (00:49):

I’m doing great. Thanks Christy. How are you?

Kristi Porter (00:51):

I am good. It’s exciting to be here with you today. We are thrilled for this interview ahead. I know it’s gonna be a great one for everybody. So, um, since you are friends with our guests today, I will let you do the introductions.

Maureen Woolshlager (01:03):

Ooh, well everyone, I am introducing Susan Kill rain, da da da <laugh> astronaut Navy vet pilot extraordinaire. Um, I’ll let her talk a little bit about her background, given that I would not do it justice to, um, try and recite all of the accomplishments out of her resume. <laugh>, welcome Susan.

Kristi Porter (01:22):

Welcome.

Susan Kilrain (01:23):

Thank you ladies. It’s great to be here.

Kristi Porter (01:25):

Fantastic to have you. So Susan, first of all tell you, uh, tell us a little bit about where you grew up in your childhood and just the background before we get into your amazing career.

Susan Kilrain (01:36):

So, I grew up in Augusta, Georgia. Oh,

Kristi Porter (01:39):

Okay.

Susan Kilrain (01:39):

In the city,

Kristi Porter (01:40):

Some of the masters. Yes, Yes. I love the one thing I know about Augusta <laugh>,

Susan Kilrain (01:44):

If you’re a golf fan, you know, Augusta. Um, I had three brothers. Uh, we didn’t have a lot of, you know, money or anything growing up. And so my dad used to take us to the airport to watch the airplanes take off and land. And that’s where I fell in love with aviation. And, uh, people ask all the time, you know, have you always wanted to be an astronaut? But I really first wanted to be a pilot watching the airplanes and then being an astronaut developed more in my high school years.

Kristi Porter (02:17):

Very cool.

Maureen Woolshlager (02:18):

Wow. Well, it’s another, and have you here today, and I see that you do a lot with stem science, technology, engineering, and math. Um, and it’s played a huge role, like in your success and you’re also involved with some programs with that. Uh, right now, did you always have an interest in that or was that something that just came with the more things that you were exposed to as you were growing up and taking different classes or having different experiences?

Susan Kilrain (02:44):

I fell in love with math. Um, in middle school. We called it junior high back then, but yes, middle school because the math teacher that I had, Sarah Brown, she, she taught algebra to me in a way that made sense and, and I understood it and hardly anybody in the class understood it, but I did. So she sort of nurtured this, this love of math that I carried throughout all of my education. And, um, I, I studied engineering in college, but I always took a math class for an elective so I could, uh, balance the GPA out a little bit. I was better at math than I was in engineering.

Kristi Porter (03:30):

My elective was bowling. So you were Yeah, math was not high on my list. So I was gonna ask you, how does one develop a love of math? So that sounds like a good teacher was the one who stewarded you into that. That’s incredible.

Susan Kilrain (03:42):

Definitely a good teacher and I had her for both algebra and geometry. So, you know, it just really set the ba you know, because with what happens with our kids so much these days is they don’t learn it every year. And, and if you have a bad year or a bad teacher, it’s hard to overcome it because it builds, Math is one of the few subjects, math and foreign languages they build on themselves year after year. And so if you, if you miss out, um, one year it can really set you back and then you get discouraged because you think that you’re not good at it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, when in fact it might just be you had a, a, um, a not as good teacher that year or whatever.

Kristi Porter (04:28):

Yeah. Wow. That’s a lesson to learn during the pandemic as well with, um, both of you guys having kids that are going through school and had to do homeschool and all of that. Yeah.

Maureen Woolshlager (04:37):

Well, my kids are a little bit younger, but I was curious, Susan, if you had any challenges teaching your kids some of that new math that the kids have now because, um, I’ve seen some of the things that some of the older kids have done and I’m like, I don’t know how to do that <laugh>. And it’s just, they’re teaching things differently now that the way that I, the acronyms that I remembered for algebra and geometry and things like that are very different now. And there’s this blocking and drawing and, um, and it’s not even like high level math. And so I was wondering if that stumped you at all, uh, when some of the kids came home with some work.

Susan Kilrain (05:11):

Yeah. You’ll first notice it in, uh, multiplication, <laugh> start multiplying two digit and three digit numbers. And, and fortunately the teachers that my kids had for the most part, accepted whichever way they did it, as long as what they did made sense and it came to the correct answer. So I tried to teach my kids several different ways and let them pick the one that sunk into their head the best. Um, you know, cuz kids don’t all think in one way. Right. And I saw, uh, I think it might have been a YouTube video years back where, uh, uh, maybe a Japanese teacher got up and she did the same problem on the board, like five different ways and the kids could just pick whichever way made sense. And I thought that’s really smart. Yeah. Cause not everybody gets it the way that it’s taught and who cares. Right. Which way makes sense to them as long as they understand what they’re doing and how they’re coming to the answer, you know,

Kristi Porter (06:17):

Which is a better life lesson as well, <laugh>.

Susan Kilrain (06:19):

Yes, I agree. Exactly. There’s so many different brains out there and people don’t all think the same, nor should they think the same. Right.

Kristi Porter (06:28):

I’m curious to talking about your, your kids, your childhood. You’ve had an extraordinary career, which we’re about to jump into, but now that you’re kind of looking back on, on the other side of, of those growing up years and raising kids through all of this, what would you, what advice would you look back and give yourself as you’re just starting off in your career or just graduating college and, you know, what do you wish you knew, um, then that, you know now?

Susan Kilrain (06:53):

I think that for me, um, I would’ve encouraged myself to, even if I didn’t have a lot of confidence or self-esteem in an area to fake it. Mm. You know, cause it, it comes across if you’re not sure of yourself, people recognize that right away and see it as a weakness. Um, fortunately my kids all seem to have oodles of self esteem.

Kristi Porter (07:23):

<laugh>.

Maureen Woolshlager (07:24):

I sometimes feel like that with my kids. I’m like, Well, you don’t have humility. We gotta work on that.

Susan Kilrain (07:29):

<laugh>

Maureen Woolshlager (07:31):

Teach that. But

Susan Kilrain (07:32):

I you the self-esteem part. Now let’s work on the humility part a little bit. But I like to think that that is only what we see of them in our family union and that they’re totally different people out in the real world. You know, it’s like picking up their dishes. They don’t necessarily do it in my house, but other parents say that you in their house. Right.

Maureen Woolshlager (07:53):

I, I do remember growing up in my parents would say, everybody, all the other places you go, the parents say that you do all these things but you don’t do them here. And I would always roll my eyes, you know, as all girls do at a certain age. Right. And then I’m getting that with my kids now and I’m like, Wait, you do this when you go to somebody else’s house? Like why don’t you do it here? And they’re like, Cause we, you’ll probably just do it for us. And I’m like drawing answer. Okay, we’re gonna go back to the drawing board here with some of these lessons. But, but for sure that, that’s good advice for sure. Mm-hmm.

Kristi Porter (08:23):

<affirmative>, well let’s jump into your career. Speaking of, um, yeah, we have a lot to cover here. Um, can’t wait to hear more about it. Maureen and I have been so looking forward to this interview, but let’s talk about the, your professional journey. It began in the Navy. Um, tell us more about your military career, which has earned you over 3000 flight hours in more, in more than 30 different aircraft, which is remarkable. So tell us more about your service record.

Susan Kilrain (08:49):

Well, I came outta, um, college and got a job with Lockheed know Lockheed Martin, but it was Lockheed, just Lockheed at the time in Georgia. And I was a wind tunnel project officer. And within, I don’t know, a few months, I already realized that I was bored as an engineer. Um, I was getting my master’s degree at the time at Georgia Tech, so I didn’t like

Kristi Porter (09:14):

What was your master’s in?

Susan Kilrain (09:16):

Aerospace engineering. Oh, okay. So I was, that kind of kept me motivated and going cuz I was getting that at the same time I was working for Lockheed. And uh, I got my master’s degree after a few years at, at Lockheed. And, and I was just looking around the room and I saw these men that were my age now that had been doing the job I was doing at 20 the whole time. And I thought, Oh my gosh, I can’t possibly stay at this job for the next 40 years. It was, you know, it wasn’t very exciting for me and I knew I wanted to be an astronaut at the time and so did it. And how

Kristi Porter (09:57):

Did, so how did that come about as well? You said, you said earlier you, that really just pilot was the goal. So when did that change

Susan Kilrain (10:04):

In high school, I just, we started the, the space program. Well I didn’t have a TV growing up, so I didn’t, didn’t know about some of the moonwalk, but then they would take them into the classroom during the school year and you would see them and um, and so I, I love the idea of space flight, but it wasn’t until just gazing up at the stars and I thought, Wow, I would wanna do that someday. And by the time I was in college, we were launching space shuttles and I went to school in, in Florida and I could watch the, um, the rockets go. Oh wow. You know, and so that was kind of exciting. And I knew by then I knew I wanted to be an astronaut even before college. I knew I wanted to be an astronaut, but it just never wavered at all.

Susan Kilrain (10:51):

And a lot of people would ask, well, you know, there weren’t any women astronauts back then. And I’m like, I know, but I didn’t really even think about it. It didn’t occur to me. And the best thing ever happened to me when I was younger is that my dad never said, You can’t do that. You can’t be an astronaut. You’re a girl or you’re not smart enough or, you know, nobody said that to me. Um, which I took that as the biggest lesson I got growing up was not to discourage your kids, let them try to be whatever. I mean, maybe your four foot 11 girl will go on to be a pro basketball player. Not likely. But it’s not my job to say, you know, basketball players have to be tall. Right. So anyways, so I fell in love with space as a, when I was in high school, knew I wanted to be an astronaut.

Susan Kilrain (11:45):

Went on to study aerospace engineering and then my boss at Lhe put me in touch with an astronaut and he said, join the military and become a test pilot. And that just sounded like the best idea ever because I could fly. Yeah. Which I loved flying. Um, I wouldn’t be sitting at a desk anymore. Of course I did take a 50% cut and pay that kind of hurt a little bit <laugh>. But I was young and single and that’s the best time. If you’re gonna make a huge career move and take a big cut and pay, that’s a great time to do it. So, uh, I did, I joined the Navy, I tried to join the Air Force, but they wouldn’t take any more women that year. That was the first time somebody told me a woman couldn’t do something was when the Air Force said, we’ve had our quota of women pilots for the year.

Susan Kilrain (12:36):

I’m like, what even is that what does mean? Yeah. And then I went and researched it, um, and saw that not only could you not be, you know, that they had limited women, but the reason they had limited women is because women couldn’t fly in combat. So they, they had limited jobs for women as pilots in the Navy and in Air Force. And so I started reading into it and I thought, Wow, I can fly for the Navy and the Air Force, but I can’t fly everything the guys can fly. But anyways, I wanted to be an astronaut. I didn’t really wanna be in combat. So I just kept, I got into the Navy and I started flying for them. And um, as soon as I had my thousand hours, which is the minimum you needed to get into test pilot school, I started applying to test pilot school and I took three times before I got in. And then by the time I got done with test pod school, that combat exclusion law had gone away. And um, I got assigned F 14 Tom Cats, uh, on the East Coast as the first woman on the East Coast. There were two women on the West Coast. And so that’s where I was headed. I was headed to fly, I did all the training in the Tomcat and I was headed, I was soon to go out to see when I got the call from NASA that I had been selected. Wow.

Maureen Woolshlager (13:59):

I, wow. I didn’t know any of this cuz I was curious how the overlap with the army and then going into NASA was working and I guess you kind of answered some of the questions that I was gonna ask you just about, you know, given that, you know, I didn’t know that you didn’t have a TV really, but, you know, there weren’t any female astronauts during those formative years. So without kind of that exposure, did you have any role models that you had looked at where you just like, I’m looking, I wanna go up there and that’s where I’m gonna go. And you know, how did you really focus on that given that there weren’t, you were really breaking all the boundaries right there.

Susan Kilrain (14:36):

I didn’t really have, obviously I didn’t have a woman astronaut role model or anything. I just knew that people were flying in space and, and so why, why couldn’t I fly in space? And I knew it was gonna be, you know, hard, you know, But I, but I also knew that that the journey to getting there, I wanted to be fun and rewarding. And that’s why becoming a pilot was so important. Hadn’t I never been selected by nasa, It would’ve been okay. I was having a great career and you know, 99% of people that apply to NASA don’t get accepted. And so that’s, that’s, that’s the real, the realistic side of things. And I was just very fortunate that I did. But I was loving my job in the Navy anyway, so it didn’t, didn’t really matter so much if I never got there. Right,

Kristi Porter (15:34):

Right. And so this may be a really ignorant question or I may answer myself, but what is a, is a test pilot exactly what it sounds like it’s

Susan Kilrain (15:42):

Actually gonna

Kristi Porter (15:43):

That too. Oh yeah. All of my experience with this comes from Top Gun and other movies. So you’re gonna have to fill in some blanks. Yeah.

Susan Kilrain (15:50):

So test pilot is someone who flies an aircraft, either a brand new aircraft to test out all of its limits and and capabilities, but more often it’s testing a new system or maybe they’ve done tweak the airplane in some way and they have to go out and test it. Um, so the test bot at school involves teaching us how to test, how to fly an aircraft to its limits and how to take data on the airplane as you’re doing it and how to keep, you know, self safe at the same time. And then how to analyze the data that you’ve taken and um, and writing reports and whatever. So that’s with the whole school. So a lot of the aircraft that I flew, of the 30, many of them were at test pilot school because they put us in lots of different airplanes. Um, especially airplanes we’ve never been in so that we can experience them for the first time. So test pilots will come out of there and then usually go to a test ate to test whatever their airplane is or whatever systems. But I ended up getting pulled out to go to the team.

Kristi Porter (17:09):

You said you loved your job and now having you describe it, it sounds like you really thrive on being the first or testing things out or really like figuring out the newness and pushing boundaries and limits. Is that what you loved about it or was it something different?

Susan Kilrain (17:25):

Um, it definitely didn’t have anything with being the first okay of the only, it just so happened I was one of the only women at any given stage in my life. Um, but it was more about the excitement and probably the adrenaline, you know, um, you got, if you look at my kids, they’re all adrenaline junkies and, and so I’m sure they come by it honestly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it’s like, you know, for me I enjoy going fast. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> pulling a lot of G’s. Um, I’ve gone parachuting, skydiving and, and bungee cord jumping and all of those things that bring adrenaline,

Maureen Woolshlager (18:10):

My blood pressure’s rising. <laugh>

Susan Kilrain (18:13):

Just

Kristi Porter (18:14):

My proxy,

Susan Kilrain (18:15):

You know, as much as my blood pressure or my heartbeat would rise when I was doing it, it’s like 10 times worse when your kids do it.

Kristi Porter (18:22):

Oh, I’m sure.

Susan Kilrain (18:23):

You know, and watching your kids do these same things, it’s pretty scary.

Maureen Woolshlager (18:27):

I saw this one video once that you had had of one of your kids, like doing a back flip off one of these rock things in into a river or lake and I’m like, my, you know, my heart, my heart races and I’m like this to me, I’m the one that’s like, Nope guys, we’ll just watch from the background,

Kristi Porter (18:48):

Just watch Susan’s kids. Yeah. Watch

Maureen Woolshlager (18:50):

Susan’s kids do. I showed it to them, they’re like, Can we do that? I’m like, Absolutely not <laugh>. So she has different boundaries with her kids I think.

Kristi Porter (18:58):

Right.

Susan Kilrain (18:59):

And it’s not easy, trust me. But I read an article a long time ago that I tick to heart and it was basically if your kids are driven to do dangerous sports like that, the best thing that you can do is support them and make sure they’re prepared and have the right equipment and know all the safety things and all of that. Cuz they’re gonna do it anyway. You know, as soon as you’re no longer watching them every step of the way, they’re going to do it anyway. And so if they’ve learned all the risks and the safety aspects of it all, then at least you’ve done the best you can for ’em.

Kristi Porter (19:40):

So, okay. Let’s get into the big topic of the vast topic of space. So you went on back to back space missions that totaled 472 hours in space. So tell us about the first time you left the atmosphere, What was that like? And then just, Yeah, I guess just to, for those of us who will never be able to understand, and I know words and pictures will never do it justice either. Tell us a little bit about that experience

Maureen Woolshlager (20:03):

And how do you prepare for that <laugh>? Would you actually like leave the atmosphere and look back at earth? You know, does NASA help you prepare for that moment where you get to see earth for the first time?

Kristi Porter (20:15):

And the question everybody always wants to know, how do you go to the bathroom

Susan Kilrain (20:19):

<laugh>? Well, as far as leaving the earth for the first time, as you might imagine, NASA trains you really, really well. You know, everything to expect, you know, like what it’s gonna feel like, what the GForce will be like, um, what the vibration will be like. You’ve been in simulators, you’ve, you know, talked to people, you know what to expect and you’ve had every emergency thrown at you in the simulators that could possibly happen during the launch phase and you’ve trained, trained to them. So when you finally get to go up, it’s actually a pretty quiet ride because typically there aren’t emergencies on the way up and, and things go pretty well. Now, of course you are sitting on the rockets for real. So there is that, but you’re so busy, especially as a pilot, um, doing all the procedures you have to do and, and monitoring all the systems and making sure everything’s working right, that you don’t, it’s only eight and a half minutes, so you don’t have time to, to really sit there and think, Oh my gosh, this is dangerous.

Susan Kilrain (21:29):

Or you know, people ask, Are you scared? I don’t have time to be scared. I’m busy, really busy and it’s only eight and a half minutes. It’s a, it happens really quickly now as far as, you know, looking down at earth the first time, there’s no way to be prepared for that. Uh, pictures don’t do it justice. People’s descriptions can’t really explain it. Um, there’s a overwhelming feeling not only of the beauty of what you’re seeing, but also of the, you’ve been working for a gazillion years to get here and now here you are. So there’s that feeling that you’re, you’re dealing with as well. And then it’s not too long after that that weightlessness starts to make you feel a little queasy to your stomach <laugh>. And um, within hours that your head is full of fluid because gravity isn’t getting it outta your head. And so you have like a big sinus headache and so it’s kind of uncomfortable. Um, especially on your first flight for two or three days. And, um, people get the queasiness to different degrees, some requiring actual medication, some actually getting sick. For me it was just like, um, morning sickness. I just didn’t feel well, you know, for a few days and then that goes away.

Kristi Porter (22:48):

Wow. Wow. Um, and then, so yes, how do you go to the bathroom in space?

Susan Kilrain (22:54):

Oh yeah, that question <laugh>, I asked

Maureen Woolshlager (22:56):

You that like a couple years ago too. My kids were like, we need to know.

Kristi Porter (22:59):

Everybody wants to know. Yeah.

Susan Kilrain (23:02):

You know, first people can’t wrap their heads around the fact that all body functions, um, eating, digestion, everything except for your vestibular system, which completely goes out to lunch. Everything else doesn’t need, nothing needs gravity. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, nothing needs to feel gravity on it to work perfectly. I mean, you can eat your food, it will still go to your stomach even if your stomach is up or down or every, which ray. And, and so going to the bathroom happens pretty much the same. It’s just our toilet is different. Yeah. <laugh>, you know, and all of our liquid waste or urine goes into a funnel. Men and women, all, everybody has their own attachment that you attach to the funnel and you pee into it and that just goes overboard right away. Um, on the space shuttle, on the space station, they actually recycle it and um, filter it and make it into water, believe it or not.

Maureen Woolshlager (24:03):

Usually

Susan Kilrain (24:03):

Drinking water though, <laugh>. And then, um, as for solid waste, it’s um, you know, just a, a toilet that you sit on but there’s no water in your toilet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it’s more of a, um, a vacuum thing so that everything goes in, stays in there. And um, and then for the space shuttle, we would just bring it all back down to Earth. It would just stay in the tank. Um, up in the space station, they uh, put it in soy use capsules that return and sometimes they put it in with the trash that burns up on reentry huh. And stuff. So you can’t release that overboard cuz you’d run into it again 90 minutes later and every 90 minutes after that. So <laugh>

Kristi Porter (24:50):

Okay. There’s an image. Yeah.

Maureen Woolshlager (24:51):

<laugh>. Something along those lines though real quick Christy. Yeah, go for it. You know, so most of us earthlings let’s say, right? You know, we only know what we see in space from movies and things like that. And so one of the things along with how do you go to the bathroom in space everybody wants to know or makes assumption on is how dark is it up there? Because, because you know, I’m looking even at the picture as your background and say, you know, is it really dark or does the sun reflect off things? And does that kind of create an, a feeling of, wow, I am really far away from home and land? Or is it more of a comforting feeling given how the atmosphere is?

Susan Kilrain (25:33):

Yeah, well when you’re, when the sun is in view, it’s very bright and hot and warm, you know. Um, and then when the sun is not in view, like when the earth is blocking the sun, then it’s dark, really dark and we turn the lights on or we, or maybe I wouldn’t turn the lights on and I would look at the stars. Mm. Um, it’s really, really dark. Kind of like being in the middle of the ocean, you know, with no lights. Um, and because we’re going around the world every 90 minutes you have 45 minutes of daytime and 45 minutes of nighttime so that it’s, it’s it’s light and you turn the lights off and it’s dark and it’s light and it’s dark and your body, your circadian rhythms go out to lunch because of like, hello, goodbye. You know, it’s like wake it up and going back to sleep and you can feel it in your body. Um, the kind of waking up and the getting tired every 45 minutes. Wow.

Maureen Woolshlager (26:36):

Yeah. How does that work with kind your circadian rhythms if you’re only up there for a short period of time? Is that just something that your body adapts to, to and then you try and return to a more normal schedule when you return back to earth? Or is that something that you have to plan time in a certain area of the shuttle to get some quality sleep? Cause you are operating, you know, pretty expensive, uh, equipment that

Susan Kilrain (27:01):

You

Maureen Woolshlager (27:02):

Can’t be doing it on a short, short no sleep.

Susan Kilrain (27:04):

Yeah. Well where we sleep is you make it dark, completely dark so you can sleep and, um, you’re dealing with not just the the 45 minute thing, which is fine, you’re, you kind of adjust to that. You turn the lights on bright when, when, when it’s dark out. But also some, like in the shuttle we would, we would sleep shift because landing may not be at a normal time for your, for the day you launch. So like you may be making your body move an hour east every day, which is painful if anybody that’s flown overseas and gone to Europe that’s like five or six hours east and it’s hard to get up the next morning. Um, so there’s a little bit of that. There’s a little bit of jet lag that goes on sometimes. Not so much in the International Space Station cuz the missions are really long. So they, you know, they, they just pretty much stick to a schedule.

Kristi Porter (28:03):

And how, how long were you up there the first time?

Susan Kilrain (28:05):

The first time was only three and a half days because we had an emergency and had to come home.

Kristi Porter (28:10):

Oh wow.

Susan Kilrain (28:11):

Um, and then the second time was 16 days.

Kristi Porter (28:14):

Okay. Wow. That, that’s a lot of 45 minute intervals. <laugh>

Susan Kilrain (28:17):

16 of them

Kristi Porter (28:19):

Wow.

Susan Kilrain (28:20):

Sunrises and set 16 times in a day.

Kristi Porter (28:24):

Oh wow. Wow. And how, how, okay, so you got to go on back to back missions, I assume it possibly incorrectly. How many people get to go on multiple missions like that or back to back missions?

Susan Kilrain (28:37):

Ours was only back to back because of the failure of the Okay. So they thought that the science was too important not to do and so they turned us around and the, and the space shuttle and everything and we flew again 90 days later. Wow. Um, that doesn’t, I don’t know that that’s ever happened ever. But except for, for our crew, however astronauts fly, you know, some flew only once, some flew seven times. It just depends. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and there’s no, there’s no magic. Typically an astronaut leaves when they feel like they’ve done what they came to do or they wanna go on and do other things. Um, but sometimes they’ve exceeded their radiation exposure limit and they’ve then they’re told they’re not gonna fly in space again. And, and then there’s all kinds of other reasons. Wow. Okay.

Kristi Porter (29:31):

Okay. So after, it’s hard to move on from that topic, but we’ll keep going cuz you still have a lot of, a lot of, a lot of career and lot of experience ahead. Um, so after you left, left NASA in the military, what came next?

Susan Kilrain (29:44):

Um, I started my family soon after that. I got married. Um, and we had four kids and after the third was born, I, I, um, had 20 years in the Navy at that point and it was getting really hard to juggle my husband’s deployments, my Navy job and my three kids <laugh>. So I retired, um, from the Navy. I had left NASA a couple years earlier cuz we got, my husband got stationed in Puerto Rico and I didn’t want to be that far away from, I didn’t want him to be that far away from the kids and the kids to be that far away from him. So I moved to Puerto Rico with him and then finished up my 20 and then I stayed home with my kids for the most part for a while, um, doing speaking engagements and that sort of thing, but not any kind of traditional work. In fact, I still don’t do traditional work. I do a lot of this and a lot of that and sit on boards or advi do advisory work for a, um, venture capital group or whatever. Yeah. I can pick and choose what I wanna do. My husband has 39 years in the Navy and so he’s still traveling and doing all of that. Wow. And we have now four kids, <laugh>.

Maureen Woolshlager (31:04):

So Susan, you said that right after what you had your third and, and you retired from the Navy and then you, you didn’t work for a while in the traditional sense. I think there’s a lot of people in our audience that are always looking to see how do other mothers who have a career and profession kind of cope with that adjustment? I mean, you were in space in the Navy doing things and then I I do think there is a humbling aspect of being surrounded by diapers or PS fires or toddlers or things. And I mean, I wasn’t in space, but I stopped working when I had, um, my kids for a bit. And, and it was tough for me to really kind of come full circle and say, Okay, how do I keep a certain aspect of myself? And, um, some things are stimulating my brain, um, differently. And I think as you know, as a military spouse too, we, we are home alone a lot and, uh, we, we have a lot of things to juggle and it would be worth kinda hearing your perspective on how did you go from being active duty astronaut, you know, mentally, how did you cope with that?

Susan Kilrain (32:15):

Um, you know, probably not all that easily to be honest. It was, uh, definitely like Groundhog Day, you know, and, and kids, you know, they wanna eat three times a day every single day and snacks, you know,

Maureen Woolshlager (32:31):

And never at the same time,

Susan Kilrain (32:33):

No. And it, or with the same food if you, if you’re careful. And, um, I just, uh, it was important with my husband deploying all the time, but you do tend to lose yourself in your kids’ lives. And when women, young women ask my recommendations, I don’t necessarily recommend the way I did it <laugh> because it is hard. And I think that for a professional woman, it’s important to keep your, your name in the game in some way. Be it just professional organizations or, um, part-time work if you can, you know, there, the military made it difficult for me, my husband being military and you know, you’re moving every year or two years, you can’t really have a traditional career if you’re moving every one to two years. I mean, maybe if you’re a nurse or a teacher, um, it certainly can’t be an astronaut and live with your husband <laugh>.

Susan Kilrain (33:34):

And, um, and its, and overseas a lot of times the spouses aren’t even allowed to work. And so everybody is different and everybody has to look at the whole picture. For me, it was important that I made it to retirement because at least I had that retirement income and I wasn’t wholly dependent financially on my husband. And, and that meant a lot to me mentally, you know, that I was still contributing in that regard. But I took a long, a long time out and it’s hard to reinvent yourself. Um, afterwards, I have that astronaut card that helps me, but, you know, very few people have an astronaut. So no, it’s, um, my,

Kristi Porter (34:21):

Well, and I would also assume it’s just hard to not even just not having the astronaut card, but from your perspective, like what <laugh> what do you do that compares to, you know, what job do you go out and find that think, well, I was in space and I used to test fighter planes, so what do I do now now,

Maureen Woolshlager (34:38):

Now I’m at the zoo with the kids and we’re getting in the bathroom for the fourth time today. And you’re like, what changed so quickly? Right? Yeah.

Susan Kilrain (34:46):

Yeah. And it is, it’s, you’re looking for something that’s stimulating and that you are, that you feel qualified for. And that qualification thing is, is serious because I mean, especially women, we often have that, um, doubt that, self doubt that we aren’t qualified for whatever it is. And, um, but I have enjoyed doing things that I would’ve never thought I would do, mainly because I’m learning new stuff. So I’m learning stuff with the venture capital group and I sat on a couple of boards, which, you know, that’s totally out of my comfort zone. And, and, and so I’m learning stuff there and, and I just think that if you’re going to stay home with your kids, try to stay professionally in the game in some way because it’s really hard to write that resume with a 15 year gap in, in what you’ve done, you know?

Susan Kilrain (35:46):

Um, and only very few people understand that, yeah, you may not have been working outside the home during that time, but it’s not like you weren’t doing anything, you know, you were still probably organizing class parties or, you know, whatever, you’re still doing stuff. And for me, I capitalized a little bit on, on the spouse, senior spouse, um, role that I played in so many of the last assignments he’s had. Um, but it’s hard. I, you know, I just, I don’t, I don’t, looking back on it now, what I’ve done, done things differently. It wasn’t possible with his job. I still think I made the right decision to stay home for a while. Um, but because of his job and because we were at war all the time and, you know, I didn’t think it was fair to be training for dangerous space flight while he was down range in some desert getting shot at. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kristi Porter (36:56):

Makes sense. Well, speaking of what you learned, we definitely wanna continue while we have you to continue to glean from your experience. So, you know, you mentioned a little bit about your training for the space program. What was that, what was it like and what did you learn from it? Because I, you know, it’s again, another one of those things that most of us will never have any sort of comprehension of. So tell us a little bit more about that process and now I guess how you’ve continued to put those listens into action, what you learned there.

Susan Kilrain (37:24):

I think that, um, for me personally, training to fly this space shuttle, no different than learning to fly any other airplane. You know, it, it was, it’s an airplane, it’s an airplane. And, and test pilot school trained me very well for long days, lots of work, um, learn, you know. And so I found astronaut training to be actually easier and more fun. Um, especially when you start working as a crew together, you know, you’ve got that camaraderie and, um, and so I didn’t find it particularly stressful, although the days were still very long. I mean, you talked 16 hour days a lot of times and, and, um, and so I enjoy astronaut training.

Kristi Porter (38:13):

How long was it?

Susan Kilrain (38:15):

Um, our initial training from the time we arrived at the space center until we were qualified to be assigned to a space flight for us was only a year.

Kristi Porter (38:26):

Okay. Wow.

Susan Kilrain (38:26):

I, I think that’s increased somewhat. And then I was very fortunate I got assigned to a mission right away and trained for another year for the mission.

Maureen Woolshlager (38:35):

So is that normal where you do the, the NASA training and then once you get assigned a mission, there’s another buildup of a year or two years of training specific for that? Or is

Susan Kilrain (38:45):

That Yes. Okay. Definitely because you’ve learned the basics of whatever the systems and emergencies and all of that and your initial training, but then your mission has a whole set of requirements and what you’re going to do on your mission. And, um, we were a science mission, so, you know, there’s all of that. But, um, but other missions would involve, uh, rondi vain or deploying a satellite or whatever. So you have to train for what you’re going to specifically do in space. And that could take, you know, a year or longer. And sometimes it only takes longer because the mission itself slides to the right for whatever reason. Maybe whatever you’re doing isn’t fully developed yet or whatever.

Maureen Woolshlager (39:29):

Is that like a mutual process with missions that, you know, you see like a dashboard of what is coming up in the next couple years and you kind of put your name in for it? Or, or is it kind of the powers that be at NASA see your experience for qualifications, your interests and they match you up with, Is it two ways or is it just a one way process?

Susan Kilrain (39:51):

It’s definitely only one way. Okay.

Maureen Woolshlager (39:55):

I guess I know which way

Susan Kilrain (39:56):

Definitely, but nobody really knows exactly how they pick crews. One would think that they don’t just throw a bunch of names in the hat and draw <laugh>,

Susan Kilrain (40:07):

But it’s a combination. You know, they, they take what the requirements of the mission are. They would, for space shuttle, they would pick the senior pilot who would be the commander, and then the newer pilot, sometimes a a rookie like myself for my first flight. And then, then they build the crew around that. Sometimes they build the other crew members first. Like if there’s a specific space walk that’s high visibility that’s risky or more dangerous, then they’ll pick the space walk first perhaps. And maybe that person needs to have super long arms or whatever to do the task. And, and so they’ll pick that person and then they’ll build the crew from there. And then they wanna have a combination of, um, experience astronauts and rookies and, and so, yeah, I mean I think they, and I do think that they also take into account personalities. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and personalities get along with others better <laugh>, you know, than others do. So, yeah,

Maureen Woolshlager (41:05):

I was wondering if you got put on a crew and there were some personality conflicts, how you guys actually worked that out before you went off in the atmosphere. There’s

Susan Kilrain (41:13):

No ability to storm off into a new room. <laugh> very important. And one thing that I always talk to, um, students about is that time, you know, when your teacher gives you that group project with somebody you don’t like in the class and you’re like, Oh God, I don’t wanna do a group project with him. It’s like, you’re preparing for flying in space because you’ve got to learn that teamwork rises above your personal opinion of someone.

Kristi Porter (41:41):

How many people were on your crew?

Susan Kilrain (41:43):

Seven on my crew.

Kristi Porter (41:45):

Okay. And did they take similar paths to get there that like you did or did you all have very different experiences?

Susan Kilrain (41:51):

Well, there were two pilots on board. The other pilot was from the Air Force, and then we had two scientists who weren’t actual astronauts per se. They came from the science community and they were selected just for that mission. And then the others were mission specialists that you, I think all of them had at least one PhD. Um, and, um, you know, they came, there were civilians came from a different walk of life.

Kristi Porter (42:22):

Oh, wow. And what was your mission? You said scientific?

Susan Kilrain (42:24):

Yeah, we did science experiments, um, taking advantage of the wait list environment. You can do really cool science experiments that you can’t do here on earth and you can learn, um, things. And we specifically, all of our science was dedicated to life here on earth making it better. So we were making new metal alloys and here on earth the heavy metal sinks to the bottom. That doesn’t happen in space. So you can make hundreds of these metal rod alloys that you can now bring back to space and they can test them. So if you are a golf fan, you would know that your golf clubs are built with metal alloys that we found and build in space. Once you find a good one that they really like, then they can mass produce it here on earth. But, um, but it’s really quick to experiment with a whole lot of ’em when you’re in weightlessness.

Susan Kilrain (43:18):

Wow. And so that was one another was we were looking for fuels that don’t pollute our air as much as some of the fuels we use now. And, and so that science that I don’t think people understand that a lot of what we’re doing in space is about making life here on earth better, or studying earth and, and how earth is changing or, you know, identifying issues like they’re, they can from space you can look down and say, Oh, there is a toxic algae bloom in this, in this drinking water source. And they can, you know, treat it and shut it down for a while and then treat it so that people, you know, stay healthy. And, you know, there’s, there’s countless ways that space flight is benefiting us here. Wow.

Maureen Woolshlager (44:06):

Well, you’ve had no shortage of opportunities that you’ve, you’ve taken advantage of to kind of break barriers and do challenging things. You know, you have four kids. Um, what sort of advice have you given them have as they have brought ideas or opportunities to the table and in terms of, you know, what they wanna be when they grow up or what they wanna do after high school or things like that? I know one of them likes to jump off, you know, cliffs and into deep water, but you know, as a parent, you know, I’m sure that your decision criteria for advice might be a little bit different. So I would love some advice on that.

Susan Kilrain (44:43):

Well, correction, all four of mine like to jump off cliffs

Susan Kilrain (44:49):

And I’ve sort of taken the lesson I learned from my father and my job isn’t to tell them what they should or shouldn’t do. My job is to support them and encourage them in whichever direction that they wanna go. So if they come to me and say they wanna be that pro basketball player, I’ll get them basketball play in lessons or whatever and provide them the opportunity it’s up for to somebody else to, um, show them that, yeah, this is a great thing or not, or for them to decide. Yeah, I’m not very good at basketball, you know, and, and so I’ve not, I’ve tried to stay out of the direction my kids are heading and just support them to the extent that I can. Um, my oldest daughter, my oldest is a girl and she’s 23 and she’s decided she wants to fly jets in the Navy <laugh>, or she wants to fly for the Navy. I don’t know if she wants to fly jets, but you know, like, okay. So she starts at OCS in January. Wow.

Maureen Woolshlager (45:54):

I was actually gonna ask if any of the kids wanted to follow in your husband’s footsteps. So I was, I was curious.

Susan Kilrain (46:00):

Yeah, I think that both, both of the boys still have in their head that they might wanna be seals like my husband. Um, and you know, who, what mother wants their kid to grow up to be a seal, but that’s also not my job. You know, my job is to support and encourage them and then be scared to death, you know,

Kristi Porter (46:21):

<laugh>.

Kristi Porter (46:23):

Well, you also have the distinguishment of being, um, one of only three women to pilot a space shuttle, which is remarkable as well, just getting smaller and smaller in that microcosm. Um, so what advice that you said, you obviously get asked, um, advice from women and girls whenever you do speaking engagements and the boards you’re on and things like that. So what advice do you give to other women and, and girls or maybe even your daughter who is, it’s still not a crowded field for her either, so you know, what a and when they wanna be a pioneer in their career too, what advice are you giving them?

Susan Kilrain (46:57):

You know, mostly I would say just, you know, jump in with both feet and, um, have thick skin on their way in because even though things have gotten considerably better and women are generally accepted and most walks of life now, you’re still gonna come across, um, adversity mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a woman. And the best way to overcome that is to be absolutely as smart as you can be on whatever it is you’re doing and train and be the best that you can be. Because once somebody sees that you’re capable, then they pretty much accept you. Um, you know, and my, even being the only woman in the F 14 squadrant, once they saw that I was capable of flying the airplane, I generally got treated as a little sister or, you know, I mean, pretty much I was accepted. Maybe they weren’t ready to accept women in general, but they accepted me, which is the first step. Right. You know, and, um, I, younger kids, I just tell them, dare to dream, you know, And don’t be afraid to change your dream. Right. You know, just because you’ve sat down this path of, of I’m gonna gonna be a whatever. It’s okay to say, You know what, I really like this better and, and, and take a detour. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Maureen Woolshlager (48:19):

It’s not a surprise in USA Today named you a woman over the century, <laugh>. Um, there’s a ton of incredible women in, in that list, but growing up or, or even now, do you have any mentors or people that you look up to? Not it could be man, woman, but people that you use maybe as a benchmark for how you wanna live or someone that you wanna look up to?

Susan Kilrain (48:41):

I can’t say that I had the traditional sort of hero, like one person. Obviously there weren’t women flying in space way back when or, but for me, a hero is someone that does something completely against the accepted norm for the right reasons. Like, I mean, I think of Rosa Parks type people, people that stood up for what was right, even though they were gonna get in trouble for it or, you know, but, but it was because it was the right thing to do. I think of teachers who, um, get, you know, that die in a school shooting because they were protecting their students, even though their self preservation system in their body says no, they know that they have to do that. And um, you know, the kid who stands up for the other little kid who’s getting bullied, you know, I, those are, to me, that’s what a hero is. Um, it, I I do get sometimes bothered by we’ve become, you know, as a society in this country, we put people like sports figures and, and and movie stars on these pedestals and yeah, some of them belong there because some of them are doing all the things that they can to kind of pay back and, and encourage young people or whatever. But I think that many of them don’t deserve that hero worship that they get. Yeah,

Kristi Porter (50:12):

I agree. Yeah,

Maureen Woolshlager (50:13):

I agree with you for sure.

Kristi Porter (50:15):

Um, well as we start to wrap up here, which is a hard thing to do, but we know you’ve got a lot of incredible things, um, out in the world that you’re doing as well. Want, want you to keep going too, but how can listeners connect with you? And, um, you said you’re on a couple of boards, so I dunno if you wanna mention those organizations and how to support those. And I understand too that, um, so I guess it’s a three part question, but how can we connect with you, how do we support what you’re doing? And I, you have a book coming out, we didn’t even get to that. Tell us about

Susan Kilrain (50:43):

Book. As far as, um, reaching out to me, I have a website, susan kra.com, so anybody can reach out to me through that, um, and learn more about me and see pictures and video and whatnot if they’re interested in, in seeing what I’ve done. Um, the book, I actually have a publisher for my children’s book, which, so it should be out next week, I mean, next, next year, next fall. They, they release in the fall this one publisher. And, um, and that’s the unlikely astronaut. It’s, um, kind of a motivational story for your four to eight year old kids about how, you know, this barefoot girl in Georgia grew up to become an astronaut. And then the other book that I am still in the process of writing and hoping to get a publisher is, um, more towards young professional women in working in traditional male fields.

Susan Kilrain (51:43):

And, and it’s combined stories of how I navigated those crazy waters to, um, interviews from folks that are more current than I am because I, you know, I am old <laugh>. Um, but uh, the same issues still exist and sometimes it’s even harder now because people don’t wanna hear about it anymore. You know, people have, you know, when I came through it was like one or two and, and people were like, Yeah, go, go, go. And now it’s like, yeah, that again, can we stop talking about women? And then when you look at your other, um, minorities, like women of color, they’re underrepresented everywhere. And, and so it’s, the book is geared towards young women.

Kristi Porter (52:27):

Terrific. Wow. And is there anything that you’re working on that people can support as far as, um, nonprofits or causes or anything like that?

Susan Kilrain (52:35):

I don’t have a nonprofit that, um,

Kristi Porter (52:37):

I, No, just you said you were on board, so that’s why

Susan Kilrain (52:39):

Yeah. The boards that I’m on are, are for profit.

Kristi Porter (52:41):

Okay. Got

Susan Kilrain (52:42):

It. And, um, you know, for me personally, I am near and dear to the Navy Seal Foundation husbands Seal, and they do wonderful, wonderful things and are, are highly rated. But, um, as far as my own personal causes, I, I, I don’t have any.

Kristi Porter (52:58):

Yeah, well you named a good one, so we’ll keep that.

Maureen Woolshlager (53:02):

You could ask our audience to do one thing other than support the Navy Seal Foundation, <laugh>, what would it be?

Susan Kilrain (53:08):

Good question. I would say, uh, encourage your kids or other kids to, um, to dream, to dare that, you know, live their dream, whatever it may be. You know, yes, you can do that. You can be anything you wanna be. I I hold very dearly mentorship, sponsorship, you know, I had mentors along the way. Uh, that, that is an invaluable resource. Uh, so if, if you’re, if you’re reaching a, you know, if you’re in a successful career, reach back and start mentoring those that are trying to follow in your footsteps. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Kristi Porter (53:48):

Great advice. Well, thank you so much for your time. This was fantastic, insightful, enlightening, um, the whole thing. So it was, uh, definitely worth our time and I hope it was worth your time as well. And can’t wait for, uh, everyone else listening to be able to learn more about you in your amazing career as well, and hopefully have you speak. We, you know, we’ll definitely get her out there and get more speaking engagements. And if anybody knows a book publisher, pass that along as well, <laugh>. Yeah. But thank you so much for your time, We really appreciate it.

Susan Kilrain (54:22):

Yeah, that’s wonderful talking with both of you.

Kristi Porter (54:25):

Have a good day, everyone.