Chris Barnes (00:06):
Hey, it’s Chris. The supply chain doctor and host of supply chain is boring. Over the years. I’ve interviewed some of the brightest minds and successful leaders in the world of supply chain management. In May, 2020. I sat down with Ken Ackerman to learn more about him, collect a little supply chain management history. After our discussion. Ken told me about a similar interview he had with Dr. James stock many years prior, and the related work Dr. Stock was doing in November, 2020. I was able to catch up with Dr. James stock to learn about his work as an academic in the field of transportation logistics. And now what we call supply chain manage ment. Jim was well connected to many of the original academic thought leaders in the space. Jim did interviews with many of these original thought leaders and shared them with me. The list includes Ken Ackerman, Don Bauer, SOS James Hasket, bud littleand John Langley, Jr. Tom Menser, Tom SP and Daniel rent To carry on the great work started by Dr. Jim stock. I’m dusting off these interviews and bringing them to you on supply chain is boring,
Ken Ackerman (01:13):
Said, well, if I ever have a child who wants to be in business, I’m gonna hope I’m in a position to be his or her banker, Buy them. The company, help them buy a company, but not the same company I’m in, because I don’t want to do what my dad did. I don’t have the kind of personality where that’ll work. He did. And I don’t.
James Stock (01:34):
Okay. Now let’s go back to, um, your, your spouse, your wife, uh, you mentioned that whirlwind romance. Um, so your first date was at dinner with her
Ken Ackerman (01:50):
Yes. At her brother’s house. Yes.
James Stock (01:53):
And you got approval at that apparently.
Ken Ackerman (01:56):
Yeah, but that, but the funny part is that one didn’t take, uh, then I didn’t see her for a while. And then I met her again at a party, uh, sometime later and remembered meeting her before and got to talking with her and decided this is somebody I really like spend more time with. So, uh, uh, the first meeting didn’t get the result that her brother intended, but the second one did
James Stock (02:22):
Now, did you think back 53 years? Yeah. Of marriage. Did she, um, let you pursue her and she slowed down so you could catch her type of thing or, uh, did you have to convince her that you were the right person?
Ken Ackerman (02:38):
I’m really not sure about that. I, I think you’d have to ask her,
James Stock (02:44):
Well, whatever it’s been, uh, excellent. 53 years, let’s shift gears for a moment in terms of, uh, general questions that probably you’re never asked. Okay. You haven’t thought about first one being, if you could, uh, live in any historical period, you mentioned interest in, uh, literature and history and other things. What historical period of time would you like to have lived in and why?
Ken Ackerman (03:14):
Well,
Ken Ackerman (03:15):
I think that probably the, uh, Civil war period In America had to be among the most turbulence and interesting times. Uh, it was a time when businesses grew like crazy, those that, you know, were, were positioned, could grow particularly in the post-Civil war period. It was a time when in the country was going through great agony. Uh, and when the country had is probably its best leadership in, uh, having been born on the 12th of February, I’ve had an enormous interest in Lincoln, have done a lot of writing, reading about Lincoln, trying to understand the talents the man had. I, I would’ve enjoyed being alive when he was, And, and, and having the chance to observe how he operated. So I think that’s probably the time in that that is of greatest interest. And that’s only 150 years ago. I haven’t thought much about whether, or I would like to have been a Roman or a Greek or one of those people that’s so far away that it’s hard to identify.
James Stock (04:26):
And back in Lincoln’s day, you actually could have met him. It was much easier to
Ken Ackerman (04:30):
Meet. He probably could have. Sure. Of course it was. Yes.
James Stock (04:34):
Now, if you could meet any historical icon, you mentioned, uh, Lincoln, the pastor present, who would that be?
Ken Ackerman (04:42):
Well, that’s, uh, I’ve answered it really. Anyone
James Stock (04:45):
Else?
Ken Ackerman (04:47):
Oh, gosh.
James Stock (04:49):
Could be present day or anything from the past.
Ken Ackerman (04:55):
Uh, my commander in chief when I was in the army was Eisenhower and, and I saw Eisenhower numerous times. I wish I could have met him and talked with him. Uh, I, I think he was an amazing man and, uh, I would’ve loved to have learned from him because I think, uh, he, I don’t think he’s fully appreciated today. I think will be with a little more distance. So I guess, uh, Those two Are, are people that I, I wish I could have met and talked with.
Ken Ackerman (05:37):
I’ve gotta think of a little bit, uh, Sherman has always interested me. He was born 30 miles from here. I’ve read a lot about him. Uh, he was considered by some to be clinically insane. Uh, he was also considered to be brilliant. Uh, Lincoln was among those who thought he was brilliant. Uh, and from everything I’ve read about him, I wish I could have met him because he was, he was very unconventional military man. Uh, he, uh, and, and the ironic thing is that he had great love for the south. He lived in Louisiana when the war started and, and he loved the south. He was furious about those people in the south who had taken it out of the union, but he didn’t hate the south in general. He really loved it. So he was a complex human being.
James Stock (06:33):
Yeah. Sounds like he was. Now, if you could be in anyone in history, who would you be?
Ken Ackerman (06:41):
Oh, I suppose Lincoln, I’m getting repetitive, but still, uh, Lincoln’s style of leadership was unique. And the last wonderful book, uh, written by Doris Kerns Goodwin about, is it called the band of rivals or team of rivals, whatever it is, uh, His ability to take all the people who he knew was a PO were opposed to him and say, I want you on my team, uh, was, was absolutely incredible. And, and most of those people arrived there, either hating him or, or something close, certainly not liking him and came away with the opposite because, uh, he just absolutely turned them around. And that’s a rare talent.
James Stock (07:32):
Sounds like something we could use today.
Ken Ackerman (07:34):
Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.
James Stock (07:37):
Now some general information about you, Ken, um, that perhaps we’ve not touched on, is there any little known fact or intriguing event that other people probably would not know about you As an illustration? When I interviewed Don B, so, and Katie almost became a pharmacist
Ken Ackerman (07:59):
Really,
James Stock (07:59):
And, uh, Tom Meer indicated he was almost put in jail by the, uh, the federal agents for, uh, something that they thought he had done.
Ken Ackerman (08:11):
Gee, well, you know, I I’s terrible that I can’t kind of think of an answer to that, but, uh, Uh, Well people outside of this town don’t know that I am a founder of an independent school, which I am and very proud of that. Uh,
James Stock (08:36):
What was the motivation behind that
Ken Ackerman (08:39):
Rage? I, uh, uh, absolute disgust with the status quo. Uh, there were, at that time two independent schools in Columbus, both single SACS, uh, and the girls school particularly was very badly managed at that time. They finally, uh, fired the guy that, uh, was wrecking the school. They finally caught up with him. We opened a school on the other side of town and it was opened at a co-ed school. It was the first co-ed independent school in Columbus us. And it has had a fantastic growth it’s going, I think, beyond our wildest dreams. And, and I think if there’s any single community thing that I’m proud of, it is to have been a founder of the Wellington, the school, but people outside of Columbus don’t know about that, unless they reg all the line print in my bio.
James Stock (09:38):
And so it’s a profit center sounds like,
Ken Ackerman (09:41):
Well, I wouldn’t say it’s profitable, but it, no, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s a 5 0 1 [inaudible] [inaudible] of course. Uh, and, and we depend upon, uh, the generosity of parents and grandparents and, and now alumni we’ve been in business long enough now to have alumni able to give money.
James Stock (10:01):
Okay.
Ken Ackerman (10:02):
But, uh, fundraising for schools is a tricky thing. We’re still working at that. And I would add that I have nothing at all to do with that school today. Cause I don’t believe in staying on board. So I was on that board a long time and was glad to leave somebody else’s turn.
James Stock (10:18):
Okay. Now, is there any part of what you have done in your life that you would, as you think about, uh, that 50 plus years that you would do differently?
Ken Ackerman (10:32):
If I could do it over again, what would I do differently? Not really a lot. Uh, I wish I had gotten into this counseling business with Vistage earlier than I did because I’ve had a lot of fun with it. And, uh, I, I would’ve been glad to do it earlier. It’s great. Virtue is there’s no track. All of my group members live in Columbus, so I’m not on airplanes. And, and my motivation for doing this is to reduce the amount of travel, which as you know, is not as much fun as it used to be if it ever was fun. It certainly isn’t today. So, uh, I, I wish I had, uh, started that maybe 10 years earlier than I did
James Stock (11:20):
Now, did that group exist 10 years before? Uh,
Ken Ackerman (11:23):
It was, it used to be called tech and many people know it by its old name. It was the executive committee and tech entered. It started in Wisconsin 52 years ago. It entered Columbus in the early nineties. So I could have been doing it, uh, 10, 15 years earlier than I did. I’ve been at it for three years, but I could have been at it a lot earlier. And
James Stock (11:49):
How did you become aware of that group?
Ken Ackerman (11:52):
Well, the guy, the first tech chair in Columbus was a friend. I knew him when he started, uh, I even gave him some tips on recruiting, building a group of people that might be interested. So I was trying to help him because I liked him. And I thought that the business model was different from Y P but very valid. Hm. And, and I liked the differences and I thought it, that that YPO needed competition. Everybody needs competition. And that this was a good option to those who might like the idea, but didn’t want to go to Y P or didn’t get didn’t couldn’t or something like that. Uh, unlike Y P tech and Vistage have no age restrictions. So I have this group with a 30 year spread from oldest to youngest. You don’t get that with a group that kicks everybody out at age 50. So it’s an interesting business model and, uh, in many ways a superior one, which I wish I had started earlier.
James Stock (12:55):
Okay. Now, Ken being in the, um, we don’t wanna say Twilight of your career, but you’re certainly older than when you began 50 some years
Ken Ackerman (13:05):
Ago. That’s fair. Yeah. I haven’t gotten younger.
James Stock (13:08):
How do you hope to be remembered? You know, what, how do you think people will remember you?
Ken Ackerman (13:14):
Well, I think about, uh, Jefferson, another person that, you know, we talked about people you’d like to meet, I should have mentioned him. I really would’ve loved to meet him cuz uh, and I would’ve loved to admit Teddy Roosevelt. I don’t know. I didn’t, I’m answering these out of order, but
James Stock (13:31):
That’s quite alright. Jefferson being Thomas Jefferson,
Ken Ackerman (13:33):
Thomas Jeff person and Teddy Roosevelt, I think were two of the greatest intellects that ever sat in the white house and uh, and strong personalities. Uh, and, uh, Roosevelt must have been a speed reader and a fantastic linguist. He read most stuff, most French stuff he read in French and, and read at huge speed
Ken Ackerman (14:04):
And was a brilliant horseman. I like horses. I would’ve liked to have met Teddy and it would like to have met Jefferson, but I think, uh, Jefferson at Mo hello, if you go to, uh, his beautiful home in Virginia and visit the grave site, he designed his own tombstone and he even did a sketch of it and said what they could write and said, write this and nothing more. And what it says is that he was the author of the Virginia bill of religious freedom. Something like that. That’s what it was about. Anyway, uh, author of the declaration of independence and founder of the university of Virginia, that’s all it said. Doesn’t say that he was president. And that was very deliberate. He felt that doing those three things was more important than being president. So, uh, I guess I don’t think it was terribly important to have been president of a corporation. Uh, I do think it was important to have been a founder of a school. So, you know, I am not designing my tombstone, but, and, and don’t even care if there is one, but, uh, I guess I’d like to be remembered as a founder of a school.
James Stock (15:19):
Okay. Now what do you do in your spare time?
Ken Ackerman (15:23):
I don’t have much. I
James Stock (15:24):
Understand. I understand you try to have some spare
Ken Ackerman (15:29):
Time. I, I do a lot of re Uh,
James Stock (15:33):
Fiction, nonfiction
Ken Ackerman (15:35):
Nonfiction, and in periodicals. Uh, my favorite is the economist. I spend a lot of time reading that magazine, which has a huge amount of material in it. And, uh, I go through the New York times on the web and, uh, scan parts of the wall street journal. I do read to the fiction, uh, I’m reading, uh, VAO, who’s the Peruvian who won the, uh, Nobel prize for literature. When I read about him, I said, I wanna read a little of his stuff because I like Peru. And I wanted to see what he was writing about. And, and that’s fun
James Stock (16:14):
Now, are you reading it English or
Ken Ackerman (16:16):
Spanish? No, I’m reading it in English. Oh, I thought about trying to read it in Spanish and said, it’s too hard. Won’t read it as fast. I could probably could do it, but it’s just easier. And I pace walk, uh, usually two miles a day. So three, Uh, I do ski about once a year. Uh, I go to the opera now that the metropolitan and opera is in your local movie theater. I go to the opera a lot, but just for 20 bucks to the movie theater and it’s better than being in Lincoln center. So I do that. And uh, I watch very little television, almost never go to the movies. So that’s, and I don’t have a whole lot of spare time. And one of the things about writing, which I still producing a newsletter, you can’t write, unless you’re read reading, cuz you run out of things to write about. And if you keep writing about the same old stuff, nobody will read it.
James Stock (17:21):
I always find interesting on your newsletter. You always have on the back page summary of articles,
Ken Ackerman (17:25):
That’s right. I have to read those that’s right. So, so as you well know, seeing my newsletter they’re uh, six or eight trade magazines that I have to thumb through every month to find stuff They that’s, you know, and I’ve I’ve with experience learned how to get through those pretty quickly find what’s worth writing about
James Stock (17:49):
Now, Ken, one of the things I find interesting with all the activities and things, uh, and knowing a number of people here in Columbus at Ohio state, especially that you were never a golfer.
Ken Ackerman (18:01):
No, I think it’s a terrible waste of time. Uh, I, I, I have no regard for the, that activity whatsoever. And of course it’s a ball game. I told you I can’t play ball games, even croquet, no hand do I coordination. Okay. I, my father wanted me was very anxious to have me be a polo player, being at a school full of horses at Culver. I couldn’t hit the ball great to his appointment to me and more to my father. He thought that was a thing to do was to play polo. And it is a wonderful game, but you must have hand to eye coordination. Yeah.
James Stock (18:39):
Long stick ball. You’re up several feet from the ball. That’s right. Very difficult. Now Ken’s religion have any role as you were growing or presently?
Ken Ackerman (18:52):
Uh, not presently. Uh, I joke that I am sort of a born again pagan and uh, my wife had, uh, is a card carrying member of the Unitarian church here and she goes and I let her go. And uh, I like to spend my, uh, I didn’t mention this. We have a cabin in the Hills in hawing county, Southeastern Ohio. So Sunday for me is hawing county. It’s where I like to be. And uh, I get inspired by the trees.
James Stock (19:27):
Yeah, the hawing Hills. Very pretty. As I remember when I was here
Ken Ackerman (19:31):
Still are very pretty.
James Stock (19:32):
Now in terms of, uh, Your life, both before warehousing and distribution, um, what were, what do you think the main lessons you’ve learned in life have been
Ken Ackerman (19:49):
Leadership is important. Leadership can be taught, uh, helping people be good. Leaders is worth doing, uh, developing the next generation of leadership is valuable in every organization and passing on leadership responsibilities to other people is not easy, but very nice, necessary.
Ken Ackerman (20:14):
Good.
James Stock (20:15):
And you think in terms of what you’re doing now, um, in terms of counseling and so forth, developing leaders, um, you could not have done earlier in your career then.
Ken Ackerman (20:27):
Oh, I probably would’ve tried. I don’t know. I think that, uh, but tour has probably made me better at it. I don’t think I’d have been very good at it. Uh, in my twenties. I think that, uh, as you go through life, you’re in a, A constant, uh, tussle with leadership issues. One of my greatest frustrations in leadership was a very turbulent year as president of our local opera company. And I came away from that hating almost everybody involved in it. And it was, And, and I simply couldn’t identify with those people.
Ken Ackerman (21:13):
Uh, we didn’t think the same way. And, and it was my view that you ought to, at least if you don’t make money, at least spend it responsibly and come close to breaking even. And I was with a bunch of people who were the last of the big time spenders and they drove me crazy. So that was a leadership job. That was a failure on my part. I, I could not adapt to the culture or nor could I change. It came away just very frustrated. So proof of the fact that you don’t win them all
James Stock (21:50):
Now, given your educational background, your work experience, your marriage, were there things that you would call turning points in your life, which caused significant shifts in direction or expanded horizons? Those kinds of things.
Ken Ackerman (22:12):
One turning point was what I considered to be perhaps the best single piece of advice that I can remember receiving. And it came from my wife’s guardian. It wasn’t her father. She lost her parents in childhood, both died young of disease in her childhood, in, in her childhood. But she was raised by two cousins and the man was a tax lawyer in Washington. And I think shortly after I was married and he was talking to me about the business I was going into and he gave me wonderful piece of advice. He said, if you start writing about the business you are in and how it’s done, he said, you’ll be positioned as an expert. He said, even if you aren’t cuz nobody else writes, he said, so few people in business write anything down. So he said start writing. And I followed that advice, follow it pretty early and discovered fairly early that there were trade magazines that would print almost anything if it was legible because they were looking for material. So I, I realized that the best way to be recognized as a supposed expert was to write about what you were doing. He been the most mundane things that nobody else wrote down.
Ken Ackerman (23:33):
Okay.
Ken Ackerman (23:34):
So that was a turning point. Uh, the idea of getting out of business before age 50 was clearly a turning point. And then the idea that was brought to me by one of my board members, that it, that the company would bring more gain by liquidating rather than selling with a major turning point. And we executed and we did it. So, uh, I felt it was the, the luckiest thing that ever happened to me aside, of course, from being married, Was to get out of business While I was still fairly young.
Ken Ackerman (24:18):
Okay.
James Stock (24:18):
Now, given all that experience that you’ve had, you know, here we are at Ohio state university, They have a logistics and supply chain program. Um, if you were counseling them, what would you tell them in terms of, uh, What they should expect, what they should look for, what they should be doing as recent graduates?
Ken Ackerman (24:43):
Well, I think I would tell That they need to constantly Polish their communication skills That a supply chain manager is a bridge builder between other disciplines. And particularly in this era of email, uh, you don’t get it all done talking, you gotta get a lot of it done writing. And uh, So you’d better be able to write, well, you’d better be able to communicate with other people. You’d better be able to see their point of view and build a bridge to them. Uh, you have to get along And, uh, recognize that you’re in a bridge building occupation. And if you don’t like being a bridge builder, better find something else to
Ken Ackerman (25:30):
Do.
James Stock (25:31):
So you would do. I infer from that, that, uh, if students were pursuing careers in distribution, supply chain management, for example, uh, they should concentrate on nons supply chain, non distribution type of courses that are more human relations, uh, communications and so on.
Ken Ackerman (25:54):
Jim, I’m a great believer in versatility. I’m awfully glad that my undergrad degree was in modern languages and Latin American affairs and not in business.
Ken Ackerman (26:03):
Uh,
Ken Ackerman (26:05):
I, I think, uh, that the, the best leaders are rounded people who have varied interests instead of being very narrow specialists that just know how to do one thing. So I would advise them, uh, Don’t just study, Don’t just study supply chain, you know, go out and learn another language. Uh, if it’s not too late to get that done, it’s never really too late, Uh, go out and do other things and be a generalist because I think that, uh, Generalists are the ones that can move to the top. We have multiple skills and of course in our world economy today, uh, I have a granddaughter who’s decided she’s going to major in Japanese. That just fascinates me. I, I kind of wish I’d done that
James Stock (26:55):
Tough
Ken Ackerman (26:56):
Language. It is a very tough language and a very different culture, but a very important one. And that youngster will, if, if she gets good at it, uh, that alone will be something that’ll get her a good job somewhere.
James Stock (27:13):
Now, when you think back, you know, you started the profession in the fifties, you were familiar with it before that cuz your father being in the trucking and warehousing business, uh, uh, what are the most significant ways you think the marketplace has changed in that time?
Ken Ackerman (27:31):
Well, there is far greater recognition today For the role of service providers. Incidentally, I reject the term of 3:00 PM, which I think is a poorly chosen phrase. I prefer to call them logistic service providers, which is the business I was in far greater acceptance of that willingness to outsource that function far greater than it was 20 years ago in infinitely, greater than it was of years ago. It, uh, You know, there’s far more outsourcing than insourcing, I think today and it started in Europe, but it’s happened more here. The growth opportunities for logistics services overseas are enormous. Latin America has run relatively little of it.
Ken Ackerman (28:28):
Uh,
Ken Ackerman (28:29):
Not sure about the percentage in Asia, but as a world business, it has enormous growth opportunities Because there is greater acceptance of the fact that you do the follow the, the Drucker idea, sell the mail room, stick to your core competency and don’t mess around with things that you don’t know how to do. Well.
James Stock (28:54):
Now you mentioned core competency. Should a firm ever outsource a core competency to a service provider?
Ken Ackerman (29:01):
Well, not if it’s really the core competency. I don’t think they no. Uh, unless there are certain conditions where it makes sense, uh, a turbulent labor market, uh, a overseas different culture. Uh, you may be very good at running warehouses in the United States, but should you try to run them in China if you have to be in China or would you be better off to let a Chinese firm or an American firm with extensive Chinese experience, do it for you,
Ken Ackerman (29:39):
Uh, or not necessarily American, but a firm with substantial on the ground experience. And, and the hypothetical is supposing I gotta open a distribution center in China and have it open within the next six months. And I think you’d be insane to try to do it yourself, that cultural gaps, the linguistic gaps, the everything about it is so different. Plus the relationship building that takes years yes. In those things. Yes. Now these changes that have taken place. Are there any that you perceive as being not good changes? Oh boy. In, in this election season, I almost hate to answer that question. Uh, I think one of the healthiest things that’s happened in America in the last 30 years has been the relative shrinking of labor unions in the private sector, because I think they’ve been very destructive. There was a time in the 19th century and early 20th when they did good work, but more recently they’ve been very destructive and I’m very concerned about the pro-union bias of the federal government today, which I hope and believe will have to change.
Ken Ackerman (31:02):
Uh, I am like many very concerned about what I see as an anti-business bias in Washington, which I think will change. And I am concerned about the growth of the public sector and the fact that public sector workers today apparently make more money than people in private industry. So pretty soon, uh, we lost a wonderful politician in the state for the name of bill Saxby, who said in England, everybody’s taking in everybody else’s wash and that’s where we could end up if nobody he is making anything in America anymore. We’re just taking in each other’s wash.
Chris Barnes (31:49):
Supply chain is boring as part of the supply chain. Now network the voice of supply chain, interested in sponsoring this show or others to help you get your message out. Send a note to chris@supplychainnow.com. We can also help with world class supply chain, education and certification workshops for you or your team. Thanks for listening. And remember supply chain is boring.
