Chris Barnes (00:06):

Hey, it’s Chris. The supply chain doctor and host of supply chain is boring. Over the years. I’ve interviewed some of the brightest minds and successful leaders in the world of supply chain management. In May, 2020. I sat down with Ken Ackerman to learn more about him, collect a little supply chain management history. After our discussion. Ken told me about a similar interview he had with Dr. James stock many years prior, and the related work Dr. Stock was doing in November, 2020. I was able to catch up with Dr. James stock to learn about his work as an academic in the field of transportation logistics. And now what we call supply chain manage ment Jim was well connected to many of the original academic thought leaders in the space. Jim did interviews with many of these original thought leaders and shared them with me. The list includes Ken Ackerman, Don Bauer, SOS James Hasket, bud littleand John Langley, Jr. Tom Menser, Tom SP and Daniel Ren To carry on the great work started by Dr. Jim stock. I’m dusting off these interviews and bringing them to you on supply chain is boring.

James Stock (01:12):

Uh, what was the most difficult aspect of being in the military?

Ken Ackerman (01:16):

It was a piece of cake. I, I, I didn’t wanna be there, but once I got there, I had a wonderful time. Mike Culver training got me through basic training really easily, cuz I knew pretty much what to expect. So, uh, basic training, uh, I say it wasn’t fun, but uh, there weren’t any great surprises and the assignment was a very great and very pleasant surprise. I could have gone to Korea or one of these garden spots safari. Well, thankfully if you were still involved in, uh, running, it made the basic training much easier physically. Yeah. Uh, the interesting thing is I was in there at, I guess, age 23, we of a bunch of teenagers, uh, who were, you know, five years younger than me. And, and because of that, possibly in better shape, but I was a trainee platoon leader, a job I got because I demonstrated that I knew the drill and I figured, you know, I can’t drop out I’m up at the head of the line. I set the example. So I was probably in better physical shape when I got out of basic training than I had ever been before or will ever be again. Do you think the Culver, uh, experience helped you in the military? No question. It did sure. Prepared you for the regimen and absolutely those things. Yeah.

James Stock (02:45):

Now, do you consider your duty as having a positive or negative or neutral impact on your profession?

Ken Ackerman (02:52):

Very positive because I think that the military experience, which so few young people today get is an laboratory for leadership and you learn a great deal about leading people and getting people to follow you and, and, uh, communicating with them. I think the military is one of the greatest preparations for leadership that there is

James Stock (03:18):

Very good. So in terms of, once you finished your military, uh, two years at Walter Reed, you went back to work for your father.

Ken Ackerman (03:28):

Yes.

James Stock (03:29):

Uh, how long did you stay there before sort of branching out expanding?

Ken Ackerman (03:34):

Well, I, I was, as I, I think I said before, I was sort of reluctant to go into a family business, uh, when I went to Harvard business school and went through the interview process and they said, why do you wanna be here? I said, I wanna be here. So I have some options and not be sort of trapped into going into a family business cuz I can’t do anything else. So, so I went into it hesitantly. Uh, I told my father that I absolutely would not be junior sitting in the next office I had in Chicago, seen the head guy come out and say where’s junior. He was literally called him that I said, I don’t wanna be that way. So, uh, my father said, well, we’re opening in Columbus and that’s 90 miles away. Isn’t that far enough away. So I can’t yell at you. So I came down here and because I was 90 miles away very quickly, uh, felt fairly independent.

James Stock (04:35):

Right. How long did your father stay in the business after you started after military? Right.

Ken Ackerman (04:41):

I’ve gotta think about that. Uh, I started in the business in 1957 and my father retired about 20 years after that, a little less than 20 years after that. Um, but he approached retirement, Uh, maybe 12 years after that. Uh, we lost my mother in 69. My father remarried a couple of years later to a lady who really wanted him to move to Florida and get away from the business. So he started backing away, uh, when he was much younger than he would’ve needed to because that’s what he wanted to do.

James Stock (05:31):

Okay. And so that business sort of formed the basis for what you did for so many years before it was required by Xcel?

Ken Ackerman (05:40):

Yes.

James Stock (05:41):

Okay. Very good. And um, why did you stay in the profession for so long without changing, you know, you, the uh, the company that your father had started and that you took over, um, essentially was yours until bought out by Excel?

Ken Ackerman (05:58):

Not really, not, not exactly the timeline. Isn’t quite like that. Okay. Uh, In the mid seventies, Uh, you know, less than less than 20 years into it, I came up with an, the idea that I did not want to work in, in corporate America until retirement. And the dream I had was to get out of the business before my 50th birthday and get out of corporate life before my 50th birthday and either get into teaching or consulting. I had decided that one of those two was something I wanted to do. And, and, and, uh, We had an outside board In my mid seventies, I should say, in the mid seventies, you know, timeframe, 75, 76. I started talking to our board members and to my dad and to a few other people who I was close to and said, I want to get out of this. I want to change careers. Uh, one of our outside board members came to me and said, I’ve got an idea that you never thought of. And that is to sell all the real estate and liquidate the company, which we did in 1980. Uh, the acquisition by XL happened several years later than that. But I joined the consulting division of Coopers and li brand in October of 1980 and then had to separate myself completely from the warehouse business because there was a potential conflict of interest, uh, Coopers and iBrand was the auditor to the company. So I couldn’t, couldn’t wear both hats. Okay. Couldn’t have, if I wanted to

James Stock (07:51):

Now, how did you get that desire to either consult or teach? Where did that come from?

Ken Ackerman (07:57):

You know, I’m really not sure strongest desire was I didn’t want to reach retirement age, come to the end of a career and still be in a small business and be trying to figure out how to get out of it. And I had seen my father restless about this, wanting to get away. And I see it so often today, a of, of business leaders who get into their sixties, uh, seventies, and, and they’re trying to hang it up and they can’t figure out how to quit or how to get out. And I said, if you are 50 or younger, you can change careers easy, easily when you’re much older than the people will never believe you can change. You may believe you can, but nobody else will.

James Stock (08:47):

Okay. When you think back, um, to that 50 plus years in distribution warehousing and supply chain management, what do you consider your most significant accomplishment as a professional?

Ken Ackerman (09:04):

Well, I think certainly in corporate life, it was to take a pretty tiny family managed business. And by the time I left it, it was a housing business that was in eight cities. Uh, I think in six different states, we went as far west, as Texas, as far south, as Georgia, as far east, as Maryland. And we had built a professionally managed company. It wasn’t a family business anymore. Uh, I would add that when I got into it, it was 100% union. And, uh, 10 years later was 100% union free. That was not an easy thing to do, but we did it, uh, wouldn’t want to go through those experiences again, but we did it. And, uh, so we had a vastly different business by the time I left it than it was the one that I went into.

James Stock (10:00):

Do you think part of that, uh, was your father more conservative as a business person than you or

Ken Ackerman (10:05):

No. No, not at all. No. He was less conservative than I was.

James Stock (10:09):

So why do you think you grew the business? Uh, so significantly and he did not,

Ken Ackerman (10:15):

I don’t think dad, uh,

Ken Ackerman (10:19):

Really was driven to do it. Uh, there were a lot of things that happened. Our lawyer suggested to us that we get an outside board and my dad’s reaction was I’ll try that. As long as we outnumber them, we gotta have more inside directors than outside directors, the outside board, uh, including folks like Jim Hesket, who you have interviewed were a great influence on me. Uh, pushing me to grow the company saying, you know, you could build a national company, you’ve got the right stuff to do it. So why haven’t you done it yet? So I tried to do it. And, uh, Uh, when, you know, we, we went into other cities. We even went into other cities, uh, uh, two or three times with no customer on pure speculation, putting up a warehouse saying we will build it and they will come. And by some miracle we got away with that.

James Stock (11:18):

So you’re willing to take risks

Ken Ackerman (11:21):

Less so now than I was then. Yes. But, but I guess I’ve always been a reasonable risk taker.

James Stock (11:29):

Now, you mentioned after that long experience in, in the business of warehousing that you wanted to go into consulting or at education, right. Um, do you have regrets that you didn’t make that decision earlier and to perhaps go into education or consulting very early as opposed to the

Ken Ackerman (11:51):

Business? No. No. I, I think that, uh, I’ve been better at what I did because of what I did earlier. No, no regrets at all. I think, uh, I think that people who go into consulting, I, I’m not gonna discuss education cuz I haven’t been there and done that. But I think people who go into consulting right out of school knowing nothing are, You know, they, uh, they know, uh, what questions to ask, but they don’t know how to answer them.

James Stock (12:24):

So in terms of your profession now, business leader, warehousing consultant.

Ken Ackerman (12:33):

Yeah.

James Stock (12:34):

And now we’d also also include author lecture, those kinds of things. Uh, have you achieved most of what you wanted to do?

Ken Ackerman (12:44):

I think so what you didn’t mention is the thing I’m spending more time than anything else is a group leader for Vistage international, which really in involves business counseling. And my group members, I have one in the logistics business of the 13 in my group, but the others are in a wide variety of businesses with a wide variety of problems and a 30 year spread from oldest to youngest. Uh, and that’s very stimulating and the lot of fun to try to, to help people, uh, to lead the group, I’ve watched the group help each other. And this is a very satisfying thing. And this is my next career. This is what I’m moving more into and, and gradually away from the logistics consulting business.

Ken Ackerman (13:34):

I’m,

Ken Ackerman (13:35):

I’m not announcing that I’m quitting or anything, but I’m just spending less time

James Stock (13:39):

At. So it’s a natural evolution for

Ken Ackerman (13:40):

You. Absolutely.

James Stock (13:42):

Okay. Now did, um, you have a, you mentioned a few people here and there, the, the one teacher, for example, that gave you the love of reading and literature. You mentioned Jim Hesket, who influenced you when he was on your board. Are there, did you have mentors as you were developing and who were those?

Ken Ackerman (14:03):

Well, since we’re sitting on the campus of Ohio state, I’d have to say that the distinguished professor here, the name of art Coleman, who, I don’t know if you knew art or not, was a huge influence on me. I think he may have introduced me to Jim, but I’m not sure about that. Uh, but, but was very, I think everybody that was close to art was strongly influenced by him because he was just a natural mentor. I’ve got a think about some others. Uh, the, the fellow who was partner in charge at Coopers. And IAnd when I joined the firm, taught me a lot about the consulting business so that when I went on my own leaving Coopers, I felt like I really was prepared to be on my

Ken Ackerman (14:54):

Own.

Ken Ackerman (14:55):

And, uh, so those are two that I think of quickly

James Stock (14:59):

As mentors. Now, did those mentors choose you or did you choose them?

Ken Ackerman (15:04):

I don’t know that

Ken Ackerman (15:06):

That’s

Ken Ackerman (15:07):

Hard to say. It’s just, I guess I really should also say that that bud LAN here at Ohio state has been a great friend and mentor and, and I’ve often said I can learn more over breakfast with bud than I’ll learn the rest of the week Because he’s, he’s always, always on the edge with great ideas and, and you didn’t mention it, but the Harvard business review article that, uh, we did was jointly done bud. And I wrote it together, had a lot of fun with it. Uh, we’ve done some consulting together, so, uh, he’s been a great influence as well.

James Stock (15:48):

Now, do you have, uh, with all these things that you’ve done, both in the family business, um, growing it into a, uh, uh, multi-region distribution center operation, then going into consulting Coopers then on your own, um, now involved in writing and lecturing and, and your, uh, uh, your counseling activities that, uh, are becoming more important, what would you say would be maybe your personal mission statement or, um, those things that code of contact that drives you to do all of this? I think

Ken Ackerman (16:35):

That very few people are successful in leadership and, and I like to think I’ve learned how to do it. I’m still learning. And I like to think that I’ve taught others to be better leaders By maybe showing them what they do, that’s wrong and what they do, they it’s right. And, and so, uh, I look upon, uh, this counseling activity with Vista as sort of a laboratory for leadership.

Ken Ackerman (17:05):

Uh,

Ken Ackerman (17:07):

It was fun having a leadership position in a professional society like the group that’s now called CS MP because that’s a different kind of leadership. You, you have no power over anybody to get them to do anything. Uh, you can only hope you might motivate them to do something. And my first job for what was then called CPDM was to run an annual conference. And the guys who after me to do this said, well, Ackerman, if you fail at this, we’ll be out of business. If this conference fails, the council will be broke and it’ll be your fault, but there’s no pressure do whatever you’d

James Stock (17:48):

Like. And that sounds something that George EIT might have said

Ken Ackerman (17:51):

There was even prej actually, I, I got that job, I believe just before George came on board, George was a friend before he, he know he lived in Columbus before he went to, to join the council. But It, uh, Leadership in, in volunteer organizations is a different kettle of fish. As you know, and as some people discover late, you, you can’t manage volunteers the way you can manage people in when you sign their paycheck. So there’s, it’s a tricky thing to do, and it was fun to do

James Stock (18:31):

Good. Well, you looked at all those jobs you’ve held. What was the ideal job?

Ken Ackerman (18:38):

Oh, gosh. I’ve had fun with all of them. Uh, it was fun to run a company, but I didn’t wanna do it forever. Uh, it’s been fun to be a particularly, unless business gets bad and the phone quits ringing, which does happen in consulting, I, I don’t think there’s any one ideal job, Jim I’ve I’ve enjoyed most of them.

James Stock (19:04):

Is there anything that you, uh, have not done that you would’ve liked to have done?

Ken Ackerman (19:12):

I haven’t been an outside board member of a, of a business. I’ve been a board member of nonprofits. I I have, and, and I won’t be UN highly unlikely that anybody, my age gets invited to join an outside board. Uh, in fact, most people there’s an age limit for most boards. So I won’t be, I wish I had, I wish I had been on some corporate boards just didn’t happen.

James Stock (19:44):

Well, that’s not, uh, you’ve done a lot without having had that on your resume. Yeah.

Ken Ackerman (19:48):

It doesn’t bring tears to my eyes, but I, I wish it had happened

James Stock (19:53):

Now earlier in our interview, um, you were talking about, uh, meeting your wife yes. As one of the highlights of

Ken Ackerman (19:59):

Absolutely. Um,

James Stock (20:02):

Tell me about her, how you met and, um, do you have children? If so, how many, what are they doing? And, and so on?

Ken Ackerman (20:11):

Well, uh, we first met because I met her older brother who was, uh, providing a home to a Chilean student. And this, I, I, squired a group of Chilean young ladies in Washington who were part of the same student group that I’d gone to Mexico with you and this girl came home and said, uh, I met a soldier who wants to take me out to dinner. My wife’s brother was fairly alarmed. He felt that he was responsible for this girl and he wondered what kind of soldier she met.

Ken Ackerman (20:47):

And

Ken Ackerman (20:48):

So I met her brother who decided I was all right, let me take her out to dinner. And then he decided he wanted me to meet his sister. So that’s how I first met Jean. And then I met her later at a party in Washington and we had a whirlwind romance,

James Stock (21:04):

So, okay. So how long did you date before got married?

Ken Ackerman (21:08):

Oh, three or four months.

James Stock (21:09):

So it was a fairly quick, uh, courtship and yeah. Yeah. And you’ve been married how long now?

Ken Ackerman (21:15):

53 years.

James Stock (21:17):

So war was courtship, but lasted 53

James Stock (21:20):

Plus years. It sucked. Yeah.

James Stock (21:23):

Um, and your children,

Ken Ackerman (21:25):

The oldest, my lives in Manhattan and is in television, uh, special effect. And his wife is a, uh, writer of children’s books. So they both make a living in the arts and somehow don’t starve.

Ken Ackerman (21:43):

Uh,

Ken Ackerman (21:43):

My middle one is a professional engineer. So specializing in water, which is a hot field for engineering and lives in Virginia And is divorced and has, but has a great business career. My youngest is a clinical psychologist living in Hanover, New Hampshire. Uh, her husband is, uh, I don’t know what his rank is, but he’s on the faculty at Dartmouth.

James Stock (22:15):

So two boys and a girl or two girls,

Ken Ackerman (22:18):

Two girls and a boy. My son is the oldest and then the two girls.

James Stock (22:24):

Okay. What was your main goal as a parent?

Ken Ackerman (22:29):

Uh, I, I think just survival. Wasn’t a very good parent traveling too much, but my, my wife is a very good parent, so she makes up for me. And, uh, I just, you know, you, all you want is your, for your kids to stay out of trouble and be successful. And, uh, they didn’t always stay out of trouble and they, but they’ve been reasonably happy and successful, which is all you can hope for.

James Stock (22:54):

I think it was mark Twain who said, uh, as children grow, you put ’em in a box. Okay. Uh, with a hole and sort of feed them and give them information periodically when they become teenagers, you seal ’em up the hole.

Ken Ackerman (23:11):

Well, it was eventually who said, uh, all children should be locked in the closet till they’re old enough to read Greek. It’s a similar idea.

James Stock (23:21):

Okay. What ways do you think you influenced your children the most?

Ken Ackerman (23:27):

I’m not sure I influenced them at all. Uh, I, one family activity that’s been very good for us and, and, uh, we do, we can’t do it as well, or my wife can’t do it at all anymore was, uh, family ski trips. And, uh, for many, many years, uh, we spent every Christmas skiing,

Ken Ackerman (23:52):

Uh,

Ken Ackerman (23:53):

For about 15 years. We owned a property in Utah and, uh, that was just the, you were expected to be there Christmas. And everybody came and, you know, was, we got grandchildren. It got to be a bigger and bigger pile of people, but everybody out on skis. And it’s a great family activity, which, uh, I still ski with my brother-in-law and my son. And sometimes my son-in-law. So, you know, we, we still do it and it’s a lot of fun. It’s a great family building thing.

James Stock (24:24):

That’s so it wasn’t horseback riding.

Ken Ackerman (24:27):

That’s too expensive. I’ve done a little of that, but to get a whole mob doing it, uh, is, is cost even more than skiing.

James Stock (24:35):

Wow. Okay. If, uh, I had your children here, how would they describe you as a parent? Do you think,

Ken Ackerman (24:44):

Wow,

James Stock (24:45):

What would they say?

Ken Ackerman (24:47):

I’m really not sure. You’d probably have to ask them. I think, uh, they all speak to me. None of them are angry at me today and, and haven’t been, uh, A lot of needling they’re, they’re politically very liberal in this election season. There’s a huge amount of needling back and forth, uh, about, uh, the merits of various candidates and so forth. Uh, but I think we’ve all gotten along well together and, uh, and that’s a great blessing.

James Stock (25:20):

So Ken relating more, uh, to, uh, family issues. Uh, you mentioned your parents, um, in what ways do you think your father and your mother influenced you?

Ken Ackerman (25:35):

Well, my mother was, uh, very interested in education. Uh, she was, uh, at the time of her death, the president of the school board in Lima, Ohio, which I considered to be terribly funny irony because she’d always been an enemy of the public schools in that town. And then, uh, all of a sudden she was leading the charge. So I think that she particularly made me appreciate how important education was. Uh, my FA was very much a risk taker and an entrepreneur. And, uh, I think that he showed me some of the possibilities in the business world.

James Stock (26:18):

Okay.

Ken Ackerman (26:19):

They both were great travelers and I am too. I, I probably should have mentioned that. I, one thing that we love to do is travel. The only continent we’ve not been on is Antarctica. So, uh, we, we move around a good bit. Uh, I will be in, uh, central America, this winter be in Mexico for Christmas. Uh, last winter we were in Peru and, you know, we move around, enjoy traveling.

James Stock (26:48):

So Ken, what you need to do is take the cruise, goes below south America. Yeah. And then take the little

Ken Ackerman (26:55):

Boat

James Stock (26:56):

Shuttle or helicopter over to Antarctica, visit every continent.

Ken Ackerman (26:59):

I I’ve thought about that

James Stock (27:02):

Last, like you I’ve been on every continent, but that one as well. So that’s my, uh, plan. Yeah. Just find time. Yes. To do that. Uh, which of your two parents, do you think you’re most similar to your mother or father?

Ken Ackerman (27:16):

Probably my mother. Uh, my father was much more easygoing in and relaxed than I have ever been. And I’ve always said that, uh, if my son had come into the business, I probably would’ve killed him or he would’ve killed me. Uh, my father was, was the kind person who let me make all kinds of dumb mistakes and never complained about it. So, uh, I, I think I’m more my mother

James Stock (27:44):

And of course you were 90 miles away.

Ken Ackerman (27:46):

That’s true. That helped,

James Stock (27:47):

That helped. That helped.

James Stock (27:49):

Um,

James Stock (27:50):

So do you think the manner in which your parents raised you affected the way you developed as a business leader?

Ken Ackerman (27:55):

Of course it did. It does with everybody, I think. Sure. Uh, I, I was raised to be curious, to be interested in learning and raised with the expectation that I would do well. So, you know, high expectations and tried to meet them.

James Stock (28:14):

Now, you briefly alluded to this in responding to family. Um, do you have brothers or sisters?

Ken Ackerman (28:21):

Uh, none surviving. Uh, my, I lost my sister her about nine years ago. She was five and a half years younger. And, uh, I think my mother lost two in childbirth, so, uh, but the only I did have one sibling and no don’t today.

James Stock (28:39):

Okay. So no one in your family other than your father was in your business?

Ken Ackerman (28:43):

That’s correct. Okay.

James Stock (28:45):

Is there some reason for that, that everyone chose other professions?

Ken Ackerman (28:49):

Well, my sister had no interest in business. There wasn’t anybody else in the family to do that. So it wasn’t even an issue. However, this was an interesting thing, uh, as our company grew, uh, distribution center, Inc. My right hand guy suggested that we have a known nepotism policy and I grabbed that. I said, bill, that is a great idea. And one of the reasons I thought it was a great idea was I was looking around at my management team and they all had kids. And I thought, if this could really be a rats nest, if everybody wants to pull their kids into the business, I wasn’t really worried about my kids. Uh, I suspected that my son had no interest in it anyway. And when I was challenged on that by a friend who said, how can you do that to your children? I said, well, if I ever have a child who wants to be in business, I’m gonna hope I’m in a position to be his or her banker

Chris Barnes (29:56):

Supply chain is boring as part of the supply chain. Now network the voice of supply chain, interested in sponsoring this show or others to help you get your message out. Send a note to chris@supplychainnow.com. We can also help with world class supply chain, education and certification workshops for you or your team. Thanks for listening. And remember, supply chain is boring.